Welcome to hallway transgressions. I'm Chris. I'm Ryan
We are two private school alumni and this podcast serves to examine the worldviews of Christian pastors and teachers through a postmodern lens
Oh wait, was that the wrong one? That was the wrong one. That was the wrong one. Yeah
We layered them on top of you
Yeah, we have like three in one spot, don't we?
Which one?
I like to highlight the right one. You know what I'm keeping it. This is a funny gag. Sure
Ryan what's hey Ryan, what's your bright spot?
Well, this is gonna be a bit of a shameless plug, but I have started writing
It's been something I've like wanted to do. I've done like journaling in the past just for myself
But I've gotten encouragement to make some of my writing and perspective more public
So I've started something I had never heard of called a sub stack
It's this website where basically it
Says it's for like email newsletters and whatnot. And when I think newsletter, I usually think like marketing and whatnot
But it's got a definitely a more of a like blog feel at least to mine
It does and I've seen some other people's it's just a way for
People to write and not really have to battle against an algorithm of getting something to show up on social media since if people subscribe
It just goes straight to their email
So if you are interested in reading any of my stuff
It's at deconstruct and reconstruct dot sub stack dot com and there I've just gotten started
I have like I think four on there and I'm starting a schedule of of getting one posted every Tuesday and Friday
So if you're interested in getting my perspective or just like getting yeah, it's basically just perspective how I think I'm not really saying
It's the right way to think or anything like that
But I thought it would just be interesting to talk about things that come into my mind and hear other people's opinions
And ideas on those on those same topics. How about you Chris? Yeah. Yeah, I
I really appreciate your well just your four issues now, but I think you do a really good job of blending in
Antidotes from your life like in school and like around school like not just Lakewood
But more so your college years and blending it in with topics that are interesting and you know
Thoughts that you think about outside of that and so I've been really enjoying it
Yeah, I kind of try to stay away from high school a lot of my journey started in in college in these different thought processes
And so I kind of am wanting to gear it more around that kind of more of a philosophical rather than
Religious types of talks like I will definitely include stuff about religion because I mean that is my background
That's where this all started where my journey started and all of this stuff
So that's definitely there
But I do kind of want more of a tone of just thinking about life and perspectives on
What life is and how we can look at it and how we can look at other people in our existence and our experiences
So yeah, I try to stick with where those thoughts kind of started for me
Yeah, yeah, and it's definitely worth checking out if you if you like Ryan
I know he's a polarizing character on the podcast
So and if you don't tell me the things I'm wrong about go for it. I would love to hear
What my assumptions are cuz you know, sometimes it's hard to identify your own
So if you hate me go on there point stuff out try to nitpick. I'm for it. How about you Chris?
What's your bright spot? So we don't really have a recording schedule
So people might not have noticed that we're on a little bit of a hiatus
That's because I packed up all my stuff and moved to Chicago. So I'm finally here. I finally settled in I'm feeling good
I'm enjoying the city. I'm just having a great time with a hanging out with friends that are
Up here and you know, it's been hanging out and enjoying the city. Yeah
How that what has been your highlight so far of Chicago? I know it's only been what like a few days, but
What's the what's the best thing about it so far for you?
I think the best thing like is just being able to just commute in different ways
Like that was a big thing that I was frustrated about in my life was like whatever whenever I wanted to do something
I had to drive and like I just I don't like suburbia
I just don't feel like I'm built for suburbia not a big fan of driving just to like go to the grocery store
So like today for example, I needed some ingredients for dinner
I was cooking tonight
And so I just walked to the grocery store and picked it up and just walked back
I guess just so nice to just like walk somewhere or bike somewhere or take the
Take the elevated train the L like when I go and visit people who are up north a little more
I just you know tap my phone get on the train and then you know get where I'm going
And I just enjoy the different ways to commute and just the density of the city all the different options
I have and just also food
I keep spending too much money on food. I've never had and it's just all so good
Yeah, good thing you don't smoke don't have to buy those $15 packs of cigarette
I guess that is a one of the many blessings
It'd be expensive in Chicago
Are they that bad? I didn't even know I
Think it was around like or like American Spice
Which is more like pricier ones around here. It's like seven or eight bucks
I think when I was there it was like 13 14 or like 15 bucks like somewhere in there dang. Oh, yeah, you're right
Yeah, so that's good. Wow. Yeah almost 17 bucks
Yeah, there's who knows it might be more now. That was a while ago
That was in college last time I looked at some of the things that I was looking at
I'm looking at the I'm looking at a product page right now. It's 1678. Oh my god. Yes smoking there is
Definitely a pricier hobby to have
So today we have another interview among our series of interviews this one
I think is the first one that's not Becca
But we brought on a mutual friend from our past
farther into Chris's past, but he was a friend of ours from uh, like leo cederville indiana in that area
We went to school with him at least I went there or I was in school with him for like a year
Chris had been with him for for a while
But this was a guy that we had actually had like sure like they were childish
But we had like theological it quotes theological debates with with him and and discussing
At that point in time so it was fun to get to talk to him get his perspectives now because as you can see
We're a bit different from when we were like in middle school and high school
So it's fun to get his perspectives now over years that I mean I hadn't talked to him in a long time
So it was it was really cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was really cool of like getting I guess spoiler alerts of the upcoming episode
But he is still religious and it was interesting to talk to someone who had such different life experiences than us
And multiple different ways but still being able to serve his community and um anyway
Just because I know with the the Becca interviewers Becca was deconstructing more in our vein
So I think it was really interesting to talk to someone who uh, deconstructed his life
But uh, their reconstruction was more in the vein of staying religious
I thought that was interesting to bring someone on and have a nice chat and he has a really really reverence for the bible as a holy scripture
That I really appreciated him talking about and um, he's also a hebrew nerd
Yeah, what a nerd no, but also for those of you that think deconstruction is like or not think but deconstruction is like
A trigger word for you or something of the sort uh, you can deconstruct within a religion
You can identify your beliefs really dig into them see where they came from and everything
And that doesn't mean that you're going to like lose your faith or anything of that sort
Like I I consider deconstruction to be a good thing across the board and it's useful within a religion as well
Yeah, thank you
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say thanks for piecing those thoughts together
Because I think deconstruction is turning into almost a taboo word of sorts within at least like conservative christianity
There's a lot of talks of deconstruction and progressive christianity and all these words becoming like just inherently bad
Like you might not even know what they mean and yet you have negative feelings about it
So I just want to say I mean I guess it's not coming from a reputable source for those people
That those people I don't know for for those leaning that way but that's just that's just what I think
I think it's good to really know what you believe I mean we were told all the time like figure out what you believe
Learn what you believe don't just believe what what people tell you like that was told us and who knows if they actually meant it
But if you want to do that you're gonna have to dig into a lot of the stuff that if you grew up within christianity was ingrained into you
In which it's really easy to believe certain things and not really know why anymore
So that's kind of the point of deconstruction is to figure out why you believe the things that you do
Yeah, yeah and so with that please enjoy our interview with Nate
Hey everybody we are back again with another episode of our interview with Nate
Hey everybody we are back and we do have a very special guest on our show
Name is Nate welcome to the show Nate. Hi thank you. Yeah thanks for coming on
So we've been going through kind of like a series of having interviews and stuff with people coming on our podcast
I think it's really cool and fun to have some some different voices on here not just Chris and I's
So I'm really glad that you came on and hopefully we can get more people if you want to be on our show
Hit us up at pay at hallwaytransgressions.com that's right Chris right?
That's what I mean. Yeah yeah yeah cool what you said last time so
H-E-Y
H-E-Y not H-A-Y
Anyways so first off Nate just tell us a little bit about yourself like your upbringing
Like kind of what like your family was like and what what school was like growing up for you
That is a huge question
I know you get to include whatever you want
So growing up I grew up in a very Christian family my uh I have a long line of uh
Ancestors who were pastors or who did all sorts of different things my dad himself was a missionary
Because he originally wanted to uh one up his my grandfather his dad but uh that was a huge portion
Of my my life so we lived in Honduras for six years um from when I was two to when I was eight
And then when I was eight we moved to Indiana um at that point time I knew nothing about American
Culture and so I remember the first year the very first uh recess I had in third grade um was
Walking around the playground by myself because I had no clue what to do um and so I mean that
Kind of persisted um but I did eventually make friends but growing up in Indiana through high
School and then um I mean I went to public school so I guess I got a better education than you guys
Did um but uh when I graduated I I was I went to college initially for uh youth ministry um because
I thought that's what I wanted to do and then realized I really really really hated public
Speaking and still do but um I then transitioned to counseling because what I really wanted to do
Was to create that like relationship with uh like teenagers because I haven't gone through
That tumultuous time I thought oh this would be a great uh place for me to be um and I didn't want
To be a pastor so that was a better option you know I had to carry on the family line of being
Pastors but I um I graduated with my counseling degree I started a master's and then realized that
Counseling what I wanted to do with counseling it's just it's it's not really feasible within
The actual field and then realizing that I would probably come home every day carrying those
Problems and I already deal with depression I really don't need others on top of that or at
Least uh professionally others on top of that and so um I decided to quit that too I did a year um
That I was going to work for a mental health place to see if that changed my mind to see if I really
Enjoyed it still and found I hated it more than I could have imagined at the time um I worked for a
Mental health facility or community mental health facility and so primarily I was working with um
Mostly adults um but some children on teaching what they call essential skills um essentially
It's just trying to help them live in our society as it is and um I I loved the clients I hated the
Job itself I hated the people um or at least my supervisor at the time I hated the fact that um
If I didn't get the exact amount of hours I needed um I was going to get doctor pay um most of my
Clients were court ordered and so of course they don't want to go through this is a waste of their
Time and so it was difficult to get anybody to actually meet with me to um even work with them to
Help them learn these skills a lot of them were really resistant to that and so I just found I
Was working 60 70 hour weeks getting paid for 30 hours and then just running myself ragged um and
Since then I've I well actually I got fired from that but um got fired from that job and then
Started working in it and I've since found a job that I'm very happy with
Awesome yeah so you were wanting to focus mainly on like younger aged like not necessarily children
But you were saying teenagers that's what your initial idea was yeah yeah specifically with
Youth Ministry because I knew I really didn't want to do like actual preaching because I knew I hated
Public speaking from the get-go I was like I can teach though it's different but I also found I
Hated that too um but yeah so my initial was just the connection with the students I had a really
Good relationship with my youth minister and so I wanted to carry that on for hopefully embody that
For other kids but I'm kind of glad I didn't do that yeah but my wife does now so yeah that's
Really I get to volunteer and have fun with that rather than having all of the responsibility of
These kids yeah that's what I was gonna ask if you were volunteering at the same church yeah I do um
I I mean I help her with just about everything she does I went on the mission trip this summer
Um the only thing I can't really help with is stuff that happens like while I'm still working
Um and she has one program that uh that they do while I'm still working yeah I really enjoy it I
Love working with the kids I just I'm glad I don't have the responsibility of these kids as Christian
Life if they even want to be a Christian I it there's a lot of questions with that it's hard to
Hard to wrestle with sure so I mean I don't know how like deep we want to get into stuff or anything
But when it comes to like volunteering there and when it comes to like Christian belief and whatnot
Are you more on the side of like not necessarily evangelizing the kids or just like letting them
Figure stuff out answering questions like how how do you kind of approach it our approach in particular
When my wife and I were discussing this a lot of we've I mean we've been dating since we were
Freshmen in college and uh since then and so not as long as you guys have but we have done a lot of
Growing up together and so a lot of our philosophy and our deals are the same because we we grew up
With worrisome situations but from us our main philosophy when it comes to youth ministry is that
We want to provide the skills and the resources necessary for these students to develop their own
Faith we don't want to teach them particular things that they are supposed to know we don't want to
Teach them one particular idea of how the bible works we're very intentional with trying to be
Open with it because we both the the college we went to was very much the same way they very much
Taught that even though they were a church of christ school they didn't necessarily teach that as
Gospel um we learned about all sorts of different philosophies about the bible and so
With that we wanted to carry that on for the kids because we we value an actual personal relationship
With christianity more than we do a indoctrinated uh brainwashed idea of christianity we want the
Kids that have their own faith do you think we went through a indoctrination brainwashing
Well now Ryan I had to put my finger on yeah because it's interesting because like I only really
Had one type of experience with youth group which was county line like I just went I think I was
Like in kindergarten when we started going to county line and it was like 100 200 people there
At the time and now it's like thousands and they have satellite churches and whatnot so it's been
Kind of crazy yeah I went there when I was like very young and just went up through the youth
Group as it got bigger and bigger and it was always centered towards like this whole idea of
Discipleship and like training us to stick with christianity you can see how well that turned out
But they they still kind of give that idea of like just trying to get your kids to stay christians
Like that's I feel like their goal is that not what you experienced that's not the kind of vibe
You got going through youth group growing up for me I don't know it's hard to say I was I was the
Youth ministers pet I was the intern for a couple years actually with him when I was in high school
And I don't I'm trying to think back to his teachings that's not what sticks out to me
Unfortunately because he did he did a great job from what I remember but honestly it was almost
Certainly geared more towards keeping your faith was more important than anything else and I think
Anything else and for me what actually stuck made me stick with it was more the relationship I had
With my youth minister like 100 or I would say 95 percent of the um the positive impact I got out of
Youth out of my youth group was the personal relationship I had with my youth minister and so
That's what we try to embody more than anything else because we know lessons fade I can't remember
A single lesson I got from my youth minister but I do remember the relationship I had I remember some
I remember specifically being brought up on stage to discuss having pure relationships when going
Through high school that was one of the examples apparently which I mean it makes sense yeah I
Don't remember my church didn't do a lot with purity culture um we did have one big night that
Was like hey be careful you know slippery slopes if you're gonna make boundaries you make them
Like if you're gonna stand on the edge of a cliff you stand back against the wall you don't stand on
The edge of it right so like why would you do that with sex I remember all that but like beyond that
We didn't have a single other discussion of it interesting yeah I'm pretty sure I still have like
Some silicone band ring that says something about purity on it somewhere nice you got a purity ring
From your church yeah made out of silicone Chris like that oh we don't like no no Chris I think
Immediately think immediately after getting married Kristen she'd just like buy like a five pack of
Silicone rings just have one I just bought a really expensive one that was a really specific
Thing to remember though it's weird how my memory works okay I have silicone rings from when we got
Married like beforehand though I don't really wear a ring at all because it kills the skin underneath
It and so it gets itchy and it sucks yeah I I wore my real like metal ring for maybe a week or two
And then I had like this red rash like a ring rash around my finger I was like I can't I can't do it
And I have a silicone one which is better but I still I rarely wear it with silicone rings too so I
Don't really wear them very often the mines made out of wood so it's pretty cool nice yeah I got like
A wood inlay with like cobalt chrome or something like that I don't know I bought it off of Etsy
Hey so did I do we have the same ring no mine's fully wood so oh that's cool yeah I've always
Liked earth tones more than metal and so I thought would be cool yeah see how fun this is we just get
Side-tracked yeah wherever we want to go so we talked about I'm trying to think of where to go
Yeah and your approach to it so you you do kind of focus more on the relationship with the students
Well that's interesting so do you focus more on your personal relationship with the students or
The student's relationship with God like is there a priority I would say there is a priority I would
Say it matters more the relationship with God but acting more as like I guess a mentor role I hate
Calling myself that I feel like it's a title given to somebody else not a title that I can give to
Myself but that would be more what we shoot for is more of like a mentorship role like somebody you
Can ask questions to that you wouldn't necessarily be able to ask anybody else and get actual advice
From or whatever else but we do care more about the relationship with God of course we just figure
That a relationship rather than teaching a personal relationship with people rather than direct
Lessons is going to be a more powerful driver of that relationship with God I think I would
Probably agree with that like I think most of the relationships that I had that I still like
Respect and appreciate were like from church and my youth pastor and I had a good relationship with
Him and as you can see we're talking about the the teachers mostly on this podcast that were in our
Lives it's different yeah I didn't really have much of a good relationship with the the teachers
At that school or that were in my life though I really liked learning the things I think it's
Interesting that I looked back like I had good relationships with these teachers and the ones we
Knew personally from hallway digressions but like I always looked back with like oh yeah they were
Good people but once we started like listening to their podcasts and dissecting I think my view has
Changed a lot so maybe it's better that you just don't go and look back at your old youth
Pastors lessons and just like remember the relationship yeah I'll do that I'll do that
Well it also depends because like with my youth pastor I can still look back on it and I still
Think like the people at my church were were good people I can like look at the lessons and stuff
And find like things that I might disagree with but I still have a lot of respect for those people
And still like keep in touch every once in a while I find a lot of my respect for those who like were
At my home church and whoever else that influenced my faith maybe not the most positive way is I
I keep in mind that their intention for me was good they wanted they thought the best thing for
Me was what they taught me and yeah it may not have been the best in the end I may have taken
Something from it that was not good but I realized that what they were trying to do was what they
Thought was best and I may not agree with what their their their result or what their result was
For me but I do appreciate the intention there it's like you listened to our podcast and heard me
Talk about intention and impact or something yeah maybe yeah because there there's a line drawn for
Me where intention isn't good enough where I think someone can have great intention for for someone
And act out of what they consider to be love but when the impact is either harmful or doesn't have
The same impact that the intention was supposed to have and they keep doing the same things just out
Of intention rather and just disregarding whatever impact it has because I'm doing this because I love
You I'm doing this because whatever reason and just continuing to keep that mindset and not adapting
I find kind of a line drawn there do you agree I can agree with that I think there's so many
Different nuances to that situation because I think intentionality for me is the most important
Thing but in the end impact and frequency of the action and how long it continued to last and all
That stuff matters a whole lot too like you can say that a an abusive spouse may love their spouse
But not realize that they're being abusive and in the end that doesn't change the fact that they're
Being abusive and so like I don't disagree that there is definitely it's not just 100% intention
But I think for me to be able to I think at times it can be a coping mechanism as well to realize that
My pastor growing up may not have been the best guy but I can hope that his intention for me was the best
I guess my youth pastor was great my head pastor was not so much but that's okay
You grew up I guess Church of Christ like were your parents when they were missionaries was it for the Church of Christ?
No so the well I guess I don't really know I kind of but the the the organization we went with is an
Organization called Disciple Makers I don't think they express any particular bend in denomination
Though most of the head individuals there or people on the board are members of the Church of Christ
Movement and so like you could say maybe they're Church of Christ but like I don't think there's any
They wouldn't limit to Church of Christ by any means what we did when we were in Honduras was we built
A church building first and then two school buildings because the school buildings brought in students to learn
Like well from American teachers who taught them bilingually which set them up well for the future with
Business or whatever else to be able to speak English and then that allowed for the intention was growth
From the roots of the community rather than giving them a fish instead trying to teach them such things
They carry a biblical analogy. Oh I know isn't that crazy?
It's like I grew up with pastors as my grandfather and father and uncle and so many people but yeah so what I really appreciate
Because the Disciple Makers has continued to grow so we were one of the first missionaries because we worked with
The now he's the head of the I don't he's not CEO like he's like the chairman of the board or whatever else
One of the first people to actually work with them to move to Honduras but since they've grown to Nepal Guatemala
A different place in Honduras and a few other places and what they do in Nepal was what I'm actually most appreciative of
Is they have a school for evangelists within that teach specifically with Nepali people so they go in minister to themselves
Because Nepal is technically a closed country you're not really supposed to evangelize at all within Nepal and so a random American
White person walking around the country is going to have a lot more attention on them than say another Nepali person
And so their their goal is to evangelize by building up the evangelizers rather than necessarily doing the evangelism themselves
Which allows them to keep more of their faith than necessarily like you have to teach this have to teach this and have to teach this
And allows for a little more growth because what I've found with my family and with other people that I grew up with was
There's a particular set of very few things that matter for Christianity in my opinion especially for like salvation
And so outside of that I don't necessarily care that much and I don't think it should be enough to cause division within the church
For me like I don't care about women in ministry the Church of Christ some places do some places don't it really depends on the growth or the size of the church
But like obviously my wife is a woman in ministry and so she like I don't care about that or specifically with baptism
Like the episode that came out most recently the Church of Christ Church the general idea of it is that you need to be baptized for salvation
It's an important aspect of it it happens in most most conversions within the Old Testament Acts in particular or in the New Testament in Acts in particular
But my personal belief on it is that I think God's bigger than that
There are some Church of Christ churches that have their baptismals in the hallway of the like other small little country church
Because they'd rather you be baptized on your way out the door because if you got hit by a car that be baptized you're going to hell
I didn't grow up within that church but I know of churches that did but for me I don't really care because I think God's bigger than that
I don't think there's a bunch of babies going to hell because they weren't able to be baptized like yeah
Well and that's I just realized that fallacy within the Church of Christ they're very specifically a believer's baptism
So you have to be of age to be able to understand what you're doing which Lord knows most nine-year-olds 10 year olds 11 year olds aren't old enough to do that
But besides the point to be able to be baptized and so there's a lot of babies in hell I guess according to some of their beliefs
They probably have exceptions and stuff to accommodate you know you got to make people feel better
Feel good right? You can interpret the Bible in some way to make it work
Absolutely absolutely but yeah so for me growing up and from the people from what I learned from the people I grew up with
Specifically my parents and a few of the faith like influential people in my life that it's more important that you have some of the basics
Than it is that you have all of the advanced stuff and that's what I appreciate about disciple makers is that they aren't at least from what I have experienced
And what I've been a part of they don't teach a particular doctrine it's more of a how to do it than it is a doctrinal based thing
Gotcha and you're...
You think they'll sponsor us now?
No
No, disciple makers re-sponsor us
We're kind of like an anti-religion podcast
Who? Sorry I'm confused
What disciple makers?
Disciple makers has zero money
Oh
All of their money goes out they don't really keep any of that so
Too bad
Unfortunately they don't really pay for advertising I think the only thing they really do is ICOM
Oh gotcha
International Convention of Missions or whatever
I think we're an anti-religion podcast
Based on what I've heard from I guess it bases on interpretation but I've gotten some comments that seems to be like it's being interpreted that way
I can see the bend if you have an issue with deconstruction which people do
That's fair
And like if you don't espouse the Bible's literal people will say that as anti-religious at times
Having experienced that so
Nate you grew up in the Church of Christ and if I don't know if you mention it here but you attend like your wife works at and you attend United Methodist Church?
Yes
So my wife grew up United Methodist and so that was it's kind of an easy bend for her but also they're
It's a growing thing now but they used to be one of the only denominations that accept women in leadership
The tradition before was you can't teach boys older than 8 or 13 I think is the rule because you can't teach men
Because that was a Pauline thing but that hasn't been the case for UMC for a long time in fact they were the first American I think first American denomination to
What's the word I'm looking for? To ordain a woman I want to make sure of that but they're one of the first
And so it's just an option if that makes sense like personally I don't necessarily subscribe to everything within the UMC
I'm not a member of the church and I don't really intend to become a member of the church
For me I don't think that we need to be so combative between denominations
I think it just creates more division when you really don't need that but for me I just don't really care to join a different denomination
I think I'm technically a member of Church of Christ from when I was a kid but I don't care about that
I don't really intend to ever become a member of a different church but my wife grew up UMC and so it gives you that little bit of street cred to get a job
Because it's still hard for a woman to get a job within any church and so it was just easier to look for UMCs but we also looked everywhere else
Just about any church that would generally accept a woman she applied for
It was just one of the first churches that actually went the entire way with her through hiring
They had a lot of really good opportunities but a lot of like oh they're actually willing to preach and all these kind of things
I mean I kind of am, why didn't you ask?
That kind of stuff
I find it kind of interesting, this is just based on what I know which might not be the complete picture
But it seems like most high church settings are the ones that are more accepting
Oh for sure
And I find that super weird, you would think high church would mean more strict?
Right? No, not at all. The Episcopalian I think is one of the single most welcoming churches I have ever been a part of
But I go to these young upstart like Church of Christ churches and all these kind of things and they're the worst
They're the least accepting of them
So Mars Hill was not necessarily accepting of every single person
Yeah they accepted the punk but that doesn't mean they accepted the trans individual or the gay individual or anybody else
But one of my friends is a pastor at Episcopalian Church and it's one of the single loveliest places I've ever been
Presbyterians are generally pretty open to it, UMC is pretty open to it
So it's just like, well actually I say UMC is pretty open to it but currently they're going through a schism because of...
Currently I thought that was over
Well, no
I thought they already separated it was like the global Methodist Church or something
They did?
They did separate but technically they weren't supposed to until 2024 when they were going to have another general conference on it
And so there's still possibilities of that sort of schism happening
But yeah, so I can say UMC is accepting but I mean they kind of are more now since the globalist church is kind of leaving
So yeah, that's a win for UMC
There you go, you get to keep the name too
Yeah
I count that as a win, if someone's leaving then you win
Agreed, agreed
I'd say some Lutheran churches too are very accepting too
It's weird that high churches, like you would, yeah, I agree with you, with how heavy they are in tradition you would think that they are more not accepting
Though how accepting is the Catholic Church, the original high church
Right, yeah, that's true
Maybe that's where we're getting that kind of bias from is just from Catholicism
Yeah, maybe, maybe
Maybe I should explain high church for people that don't necessarily know what we mean when we say high church
So that term, I don't know if it's more academic or if it's used in other churches
I didn't hear it in church at all, but I heard it in school
And that is high church kind of means more, I'm gonna have to explain in other words
So high church is churches that are more liturgical, which is liturgy just has to do with like the practice, rituals, different like steps that are involved I guess
Like that have been passed down almost through a long time
So that's where like Catholicism is high church because they have a lot of rituals, a lot of call of response type things within their liturgy
Their church almost goes through like everyone knows what to expect when they're going through it
And where like low church would be like what I grew up with, which is you have announcements, you have music, then you have a sermon, then you're done
Like those are the three aspects
High church has a bit more to it where they have different things that are honestly kind of intimidating when you don't know what you're doing in them
Absolutely
Like I remember attending, I think I went to a Methodist church in college at one point
And what's the saying that people always use, I don't know if it's United Methodist or it's just a general thing that I never grew up with, which was, oh no
Is it peace be with you and also with you?
Yeah, I think that's the one
Peace be with you and the responses and also with you or whatever it is
Yeah, and some people just shorten it and go peace
Yep
I've been to a few different situations with that, so like our church in particular is, there is a traditional service and then a modern service
I usually don't get to go into the traditional service because that's when their Sunday school is
And I'm in with my wife teaching Sunday school, so, but the traditional service, he wears the traditional vestments
The garb makes him look like a priest, but during the modern service he doesn't
He's an older gentleman, so he still wears his suit and whatever else, but he doesn't have to
And they sing more hymns during the traditional service than they would in the modern service and all that kind of fun stuff
But yeah, a lot of the evangelical churches, I would say, well, no, I can't say that, that's not a good
Or general
Or low church, but that's not
It's a generalization
Yeah, yeah, the evangelical churches that you tend to hear more often, hear more about tend to be the low church places
Yeah, and when saying low church, that's not like an insult or anything, it's just like terminology that's used to describe stuff, so
No one get angry about us using low church or high church, it's just a technical specification
I wonder if originally it was intended to be an insult
I hope not
I don't know, there's a lot of petty people in church history
That's true
So yeah, within the modern services, do they still have a lot of the liturgy or is it more like the evangelical churches?
It's a lot more like evangelical churches
Gotcha
He preaches about what he wants to preach, it's not like the Catholic church where every week is based off of something from there
I forget the name of the book, but it feels a lot more like growing at the Church of Christ or what County Line is, I would guess
Yeah
Which, there's something to be said about holding on to traditions, I know non-denominational kind of went away from that because they wanted freedom
Let the spirit lead, I think is the terminology that they use, but there's something really beautiful about a group of, not just a group of people, but groups of people over time
Saying the same types of prayers and doing the same types of things, I always found really cool that I didn't get to grow up with
So one of the books that I got most invested in I think in college was the Book of Common Prayer, because that was a foreign thing to me
And then I started saying prayers that people had been saying for years, decades, who knows how long
There's absolutely a beauty to that, it becomes a culture in itself where you find your little, I don't know, sometimes we'll feel safer within those situations
Because we as humans love tradition and consistency and patterns and whatever else and high churches are more adapted to that than most
Yeah, one of the professors I connected with the most in college was also more of an introvert, maybe social anxiety type of person
And I was talking about how I was planning to go into ministry, but I hated public prayer
I hated public prayer
And going to school for Bible and religion, you tend to have a lot of people ask you to pray because they're like, you're going to school for Bible, will you pray for us?
You know how to pray
So she had suggested what she does, which is she memorized the prayer of thanksgiving from the Book of Common Prayer
And that's just the prayer that she used whenever people asked her to pray
I respect that, that is a great idea
It makes it way easier, coming up with stuff on the spot was always such an anxiety-induced experience growing up for me
I hated it so much and my family was the type that would be like, I almost dreaded dinner sometimes because when I was younger we'd come to dinner and my dad would ask one of us kids to pray for the meal and you never know who he was going to ask
So in my head I'm just like, please don't ask me to pray
Please don't, please don't, please don't
Like, right, you want to pray? I was like, yeah, I'll pray
You can't say no
No, you can't be like, I don't want to pray
It's not an option
Yeah, and there's a lot of stuff that I, like, I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a Christian anymore, but there's a lot of stuff that I took from my experience within Christianity and just like from college
I connected a lot with professors at my school and my school was more of like a progressive theology department
Like the Christian culture there was not, it was very conservative Christian culture, which was really interesting because the theology department was very progressive in their teachings
And there's a lot of stuff that I took that like, like even prayer, like I wouldn't call it prayer anymore, but the way I used to pray I now use as like meditation
I fully agree with you. Yeah, a lot of, I mean, I went to a class at one point at ICOM that was about, I took it because I wanted to see how funny it was
It was about how yoga and other Eastern practices are bringing the devil to the United States. And it was the worst theology I ever realized
And then I found out that the people who taught the class are actually really good friends with somebody I'm related to
So I was like, oh no, but how like the, I never really took yoga, so I don't remember all the different poses, but like praising the sun I know is actually soul born
But hey, it's a similar thing, but I don't remember it. Yeah, but like calling the devil down your spine or something, it was just super dumb
Yeah, it was always like, did you grow up kind of with like a theology of fear? Would you say? Like I would say I grew up with a theology of fear where everything
When it comes to like, like almost when I say conservative, almost like I relate to this theology of fear, like you got to be careful. You got to be always worried about what you're taking in because it can affect you type of thing
Did you have that? I would say my church was like that. My parents weren't and my parents were a lot more of an influence on my Christian faith than the church was
But I remember being in a musical for the church where one of the songs was I only remember like the chorus was like input, output, what comes in is what comes out
It's all about like music and like bad words and all of this kind of stuff. And I realized like that is definitely a fear culture idea, but my parents never really did that
My dad listened to classic rock for the entirety of my growing up years and my grandmother was scared of stuff. She got fully sucked into the satanic panic times, but my dad kind of fought that a little bit
And I mean, good to hear having heard some of the experiences of my dad and whatever else like he okay. I don't know my personal beliefs about spiritual warfare aspects of things
I'm very much like, I don't know, but my dad's told stories about times he's been a part of an exorcism and things like that. And those are kind of terrifying, but my dad always made sure to highlight the fact that my faith in a way protects me
And my God is more powerful than the things happening there and all that kind of stuff. And so they always taught a very like more of a courage aspect of it or a standing up to it or they've encouraged me to deconstruct at times to ask me hard questions that I wouldn't have asked myself otherwise or be there for me to ask them questions
And so I'm very, very lucky to have the healthy parent theology times that I've had. Yeah, that's cool. Plus it probably is beneficial that your parent were they both pastors or just
Technically it was just my dad, but I mean the role that the pastor's wife feels is so right. It feels like she also was too.
So they were probably more confident in their own faith that they were willing to do that for you. I would say there's probably a lot of parents that aren't as confident in their faith and so they're almost worried about questions or questioning of anything in there and so
I mean my parents went to a foreign country with no exit plan to preach about God. So like I feel like there's a level to like you have to have to have some faith and some confidence in yourself. Otherwise, there's no way.
And they actually talk about that. Their first year abroad was some of the hardest times in their marriage and our family life and in their faith because I mean it's terrifying.
Being away from home, your safety nets of your family, your friends, any of those people and then not even they spoke the language of course, but like it's not your language. It's not what you're used to.
The music on the radio is not what you're used to. The people around you aren't speaking your natural tongue. Like there's a lot of things that culture shock hits hard, but then it hits harder if you don't have a plan to get home.
If you didn't buy a ticket on a plane to get home, like it hits a little bit hard because you kind of just dove into the deep end.
And they talk about how that strengthened them more than it broke them down, but they realize how difficult it was for that to be the case.
So I tend to laugh at the... I'm too judgmental of young missionaries coming out of college, especially because I went to school with them and I'm like, oh, I want to see this happen.
I don't know how well this is going to work out.
Yeah. Yeah. I knew some people. I think there was one person that was from my church that was... I kind of looked up to because like he was younger, you know, like you tend to look up to someone who's closer to your age for some reason.
But he went and started... I don't know if he started or like just became very involved in some water filtration service in somewhere in Africa, I think.
That's awesome.
But yeah, and he like dropped everything and just like moved there and married, I think, his wife there too.
That's intense.
But like it takes some guts to up and move to a whole different continent.
I was going to say though, it's kind of looking pretty appealing to move to a different continent.
A different continent, but maybe not for that reason, because I agree with you. I wouldn't mind.
Oh man. So I'm just curious and I want to see how you would put yourself. So let's say there's like a spectrum of Christianity and like I don't like making it dualistic, but just for the sake of this question.
Okay.
Let's say conservative is like on one side and progressive is on the other. Like that's the spectrum. Where would you place yourself on there?
I would very much be on the progressive side of it. It was like, okay. That's a weird question a little bit because there's a level I could ask.
Is it like, are you talking theology wise or interpretations of the Bible wise or?
I tend to think those are kind of linked because if you interpret the Bible in a certain way, it's going to affect your own theology.
That's valid. I think when I explained myself, it was confusing.
So for me, I take a very conservative view with translation of the Bible because I took Hebrew in college.
And so I'm particular about that. But when it comes to actual theology points, I'm very much on the progressive side.
I mean, it's kind of hard not to be considering my wife's and I's lifestyle.
She's a woman who is in a church leadership role at the church she's in. She's technically the family minister, not just the youth minister, but her main job is youth ministry.
And she is demisexual. I am ace.
And which, I mean, neither of these things are really against the Bible in all reality.
It's I guess what Demi it can be because it tends to lean more towards like the bisexual range than it does straight because of the whole.
That's a long discussion. We don't have to get people can look at it.
Yeah, look at me. If you want to if you want to learn about that.
Yes. So and so we kind of have to lean that way.
I tend to lean on a more progressive view of creation, especially with how I mean all of my opinions.
I don't hold that strongly to like I have opinions, but they're not necessarily things that I would teach others on or like this is absolute truth.
Yeah, because I hate that idea. Obviously, I've talked about that previously.
But for me, I yeah, definitely on the progressive side for sure.
How do you feel about most used English translations of the Bible?
It heavily depends on their purpose.
Like how do you feel about like NIV is what I grew up with.
Do you like the ARV Bible?
Isn't that bad, especially after some of its its revisions?
It's I mean, there's there's issues with it because I mean, we didn't add homosexual to the Bible until the early 1900s or mid 1900s.
Yeah, like there are aspects to it that are obviously issues like issues.
But my my problem would more lie on what is the point of your reading?
Like am I wanting to make it understandable for kids?
Then I don't really mind the message is certain portions of the message.
I'm not going to read it for study.
My personal choice is typically the ESV or the NASB just because they tend to be more word for word translations rather than idea for idea translations.
Yeah, I don't think it's a great idea to pretend that we know what the biblical authors were thinking.
Like there's a level to like, yeah, that's how we should interpret.
But I don't think it's I don't think it can be done for the sake of everybody else to read it. If that makes sense.
I'd rather it be done more literally so that I can make that interpretation rather than for somebody else to make that interpretation for me like homosexual.
Yeah, yeah, because for people that don't know, there's a lot of assumptions that are made when translating the Bible because you got to think people that wrote this thing were from a long lost culture that we can't understand.
And so there's a lot of assumptions that have to be made about that culture and about what those people were going through, like the environment.
If you don't know, environment has a big impact on culture.
And so I mean, a culture that changed massively over time to over centuries.
So it's much more complex than I think people realize.
Absolutely. It took me learning Hebrew and getting more into the Old Testament to have a lot more.
I mean, I always respected the Jewish culture and the Jewish people, but like I have a lot more respect for them than I ever did previously.
Same.
And I heavily appreciate that that whole culture and the beliefs around it.
I've always wanted to celebrate Passover, but I've never gotten the opportunity.
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I never practiced growing up either.
Like it wasn't until college that I first practiced Lent. Like, yeah, didn't even know really what that was.
There were so many different things happened in college.
I was like, huh, Christianity can be very different than the one I grew up with.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Especially like Messianic Judaism. It's really not that different.
You just like you just practice the Jewish culture while believing in Jesus.
Like, just so everyone knows, there's stuff to gain from everyone.
No matter if you disagree with them, like you can gain something. You can learn something from everything.
Like understanding the roots between Islam and Christianity or all of those different things.
Yeah. Doesn't always have to be defensive. There's stuff to learn.
Yeah.
That feels like a subtext to our last episode. If you want to learn more about that, see episode five.
What's funny is I never actually listened to that half. So I only know about the subject.
I don't know what actually was discussed.
Oh, but that's actually really funny because you just nailed it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because you probably would know more about it too. So you took a bunch of Hebrew.
I took like three semesters of Hebrew and then took like three years of Greek. I went the other route.
I took two years. So four total semesters. I think two. Yeah. Four total semesters.
We started with, I think a class of like 13. I ended the class with two. There was one other person with me.
Yeah, that makes sense. My last single hardest class I ever took.
The single hardest education thing I've ever done was Hebrew.
I found Greek much easier. Sorry.
I mean, it makes sense. It serves as some of the basis for our current language versus Hebrew does not. Lord, it does not.
And honestly, the characters are harder than Greek characters.
Absolutely. And you have to, well, if you're supposed to, if you're writing them correctly, you're writing them from right to left.
And now we understand the issue with everybody who is left handed and getting stuff on their hands as they write.
And I'm sorry. Oh, I just got the like Hebrew keyboard on my computer and would type up everything.
Yeah. Yeah. We did a lot more paperwork than we did. Yuck. Type, type, type stuff.
Yeah, I did like all of my homework and on a computer. That's nice. That's nice. I loved my Hebrew class.
I loved it. I struggled massively through it.
And I appreciate that because it taught a lot of perseverance aspects.
I mean, once you get that. So literally it was three people after the first semester, after like the first couple of weeks of the first semester, actually.
And then after that, it was two people that went on to the second year.
And I was like, well, I can't leave this guy now. Like, I'm in it now.
I didn't even need the class anymore. I could have tested out Spanish way earlier, but I was like, I'm going to learn this.
But I'm happy I actually stuck with it because it did. Yeah. Are you still doing any translating?
Not really. I when I read, I like to read out of my I have an inner linear for the Old Testament that I like to read out of.
That's it's an ESV and Hebrew inner linear. But for the most part, I'm not necessarily doing a lot of like actual translation.
Gotcha. That kind of got beat out of me during that my 25 page paper about one particular chapter.
Yeah. Yeah, I did that like three days and I hated myself the entire time.
Funny story. Part of the like part of the catalyst for me switching to a Bible and religion degree was I was at Purdue studying electrical engineering
and I needed some sort of elective and there was an actual biblical Hebrew course at Purdue.
I was like, that sounds fun. Who people make fun of me for choosing that as like an elective course.
I got made fun of. I went to a Bible college.
Guys, come on. But yeah, I took that Hebrew course and really enjoyed it.
And that was part of the switch over to Bible and religion going back to we're not back but going to Anderson.
Yeah, I it's probably one of the things that I'm most proud of in the end is being able to say and it like it's influenced my perspective on the Bible and all that kind of thing.
Like for me, I'm going to bring up a very fun topic for me. Genesis one is poetry and poetry written for people who weren't necessarily looking for a science book.
So do I think it needs to be literal? No, do I? I know. I know. I don't think it needs to be literal, but I don't necessarily think it needs to be that far off either.
Does that make sense? Like I think it was more of like a figurative metaphor than anything.
And I mean, here's a quick lesson. The word for day in Hebrew doesn't necessarily mean 24 hours.
It can mean age or epoch or anything. So like, let's just take that and then extrapolate from there.
And that's how you get Christians that believe in older. Yeah, that's my personal leaning.
And secondarily, I think if God created and God is God, then eventually science should grow to agree with him rather than disagree.
You think because God created it. So I wouldn't. And like I find at times there is reassurance in science and all that kind of stuff for me.
And so recognizing that God that Satan didn't put dinosaur bones in the ground. That's not what happened. Come on.
Like or I remember espousing in high school being like there's a mountain in France that if you carbon date it, it's actually upside down.
I remember saying that kind of stuff. And I'm like, I'm kind of mad at myself for just bringing these random things up.
I'm like, yeah, actually, carbon dating is total crap.
You know, we used to have like little like when I came to Leo, didn't we have little debates over stuff like this every once in a while?
I remember getting a baptism debate. I remember that too, actually.
And I'm sorry for that argument I had with you. It's I enjoyed it. It's fun. It was always fun. It was fun.
I know I was never mad. I just remember like our little brainwashed selves fighting over different local traditions that we had no clue about.
And honestly, I still don't know everything about.
Speaking of apologizing for things, I still have a vivid memory that I will now apologize for.
We were really into that whole thing where you hit your knee into the back of someone else's knee to make them like, yeah, I remember doing that to you, Nate.
And you getting very upset about it. Yeah, I'm very bad.
I was a I was a very self-conscious kid. I remember playing soccer with you, Ryan.
And unfortunately, you were very good at soccer and one of the few that actually was better in gym class.
And I remember playing against you and you kept scoring.
So eventually you found and I kicked it directly at you hard. I don't remember that one. I hit you in the back.
That's awesome. I deserved it.
I people always got angry at me because they said I tried too hard in gym class, but I found that if I didn't try, it wasn't fun.
I fully agree with you. And I wasn't good at everything. I just tried.
Yeah. Oh, man. You got mad in a liquid gym class one time. Oh, yeah, I did.
I put a dude on the ground. Oh, I didn't like punch him.
But it was more like a tripping thing.
Like I pulled him back and over my leg, like to put him on the ground and then stormed out of the gym class.
Oh, God is gracious. And then I didn't get sent to like the principal or anything.
The gym teacher came in and was just like, yeah, I heard like about what happened.
It's like, I'll tell you what, just apologize to the class and you'll be good.
I was like, OK, not to the kid, to the whole class.
No, yeah, for disrupting the whole thing. Yeah.
Yeah, not for throwing the kid on the ground. Yeah. No, he deserved it.
I don't feel bad about that one. He did deserve it.
I'm sure you were in the right. No, no one's right or wrong.
I'm just I don't feel bad about it. There you go.
You don't need to apologize to him now like you needed to when you hit him in the back of the knee.
I did. I felt very bad about that one after I got to see the impact of my actions.
I was like, oh, I don't even know why I would be a fun thing because it probably hurt.
I was kind of like an aggressive person.
It probably you honestly probably hurt my pride more than anything because there was a very particular girl I wanted to impress.
And getting hit in the back of the knee was not going to work.
Yeah, because I think it almost made you collapse on the ground like it very well could have.
Yeah, it was. I don't remember it at all.
Like not even a little bit. It's pretty vivid.
I've ever. Yeah, I must. But you can't apologize.
That's also a hurt to your pride. I can't apologize.
Oh, yeah. No, I'm just going to I'm just going to get you back.
I'm going to find you and then hit you in the back of the knee.
Blow out your knee. Do it.
Was that also the year that I was doing the whole like pulling up someone's foot by putting my foot under their foot like from behind?
Probably. I remember doing it.
I was thinking like this stuff. You like messing with people walking.
I really like to messing with people.
If we're apologizing to people now, I'm going to apologize to Chris because I hit him in the back of the knee so hard he did fall once.
So Chris, not Chris Thurber. Sorry. Not this Chris.
I know it's different, Chris. Yeah. And I feel bad for that.
Sorry, Chris. Ryan's hit me in the throat a couple times and has never apologized.
So no, I should feel lucky that he apologized to you, Nate.
I apologize to Chris. Chris, that's coming to him.
I feel like Ryan was it was pretty mean to all of us geeky kids.
I was because like I was kind of like a geeky kid.
Like I was into all of the geeky stuff.
Yeah, but you were actually athletic. Yeah.
And so I would use that against everyone else.
You hung out with all the geeks and then you were actually athletic and cool. I see how it is.
Yeah. Yeah. Best of both worlds because the geeky stuff is way more fun.
And I can just do that. I could just go play sports if I wanted to, which I did.
I was like, I'm done with this. People take it too seriously.
High school seniors took it too seriously. Really?
Yeah, because they were all looking like my reasoning was like they're looking for like recruiters and stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. College. And it's like, I'm not going to take this seriously enough to like make our team look the best it can be.
Like I don't care about how our team looks.
So it's both a noble thing and then and also selfish.
Like I just don't want to play with these guys anymore. Yeah.
I quit soccer in going into freshman year, I think.
I didn't know eighth grade year because I was short, fat and slow. So it was probably the best idea for me at the time.
I think Chris was the opposite. Yeah. Chris was tiny.
Chris was a little twig.
I never really changed. So I guess I'm not short as much anymore, but I'll keep the rest of it.
There you go. Yeah. Chris played soccer freshman year with us.
And Chris hated it. It took all time. Took it really easy.
You guys took it. See, that's what people are like.
It's hard to have fun, but there are some people that got angry if you did stuff wrong.
And that's where I was like, I want a good game.
So it's like, I want you to be capable. But like if people are yelling at me for like not going well enough, it's like, I don't really care that much anymore.
I get that completely.
I think it was a whole like moving to a new school kind of thing too, right?
Like I didn't know anyone, but were yelling at me.
And I was a dick to Chris when he moved over to Lakeland.
I was going to say, I'm sorry, Chris, because we all made fun of you for following Ryan. So sorry.
Yeah. Not wrong, though.
He followed me all the way to Lakeland. And then I told him, you need to make your own friends.
And just did not. Yeah. I was not a part of introducing him to people at all.
You took a guppy along with you and then just threw him to the sharks, man.
He came out well. OK. He made friends. He made the same friends that I had anyways.
There was like a certain amount of people to make friends with.
Yeah. In a class of not many.
Yeah, that's true. My wife graduated with 36. So she's got you beat.
And I graduated with 250 something, I think.
And even that's kind of small compared to some other people.
Yeah, no, that's tiny compared to like some places in Cincinnati or Indy, for that matter.
I was curious if you could kind of talk a little bit about how you viewed the Bible growing up versus how you view the Bible now.
Because you've talked a little bit about your upbringing and you've talked a little bit now.
And you seem to still have a lot of reverence to the Bible, much more than I think Ryan and I have.
I was curious to kind of talk about differences in the similarities that you've kept.
That's a good question. So for me, growing up, I mean, there is a reverence for the Bible, but I don't really remember ever studying it.
I didn't go to a school that made me study it. So I didn't when I was growing up, for the most part.
I hit more when I went to college.
I really appreciate my college because I went through an Old Testament and a New Testament several years of both of those classes that made sure I actually knew the story of the Bible, like the overarching narrative of it.
Like I knew most of the stories within it and I knew most of what people will pull from.
I learned so many different things about judges and all these other places that were just never talked about.
And I found for me now, looking at the Bible, I think there is a lot of beauty within its pages, but there is a lot of other things too.
You can look at the Old Testament and see all of the different pages in which God asked for destruction upon peoples that were not his chosen people.
And that feels awful to see. But with my education, I also learned that in every single time where an outsider was trying to pursue God, he worked with them.
He incorporated them into his people. He incorporated them into his promise and many times into the line of his eventual son or so on.
And so realizing that we maybe aren't getting the other stories because they aren't a part of the narrative that the Israelites wanted to tell.
The Israelites wanted to show that they were a strong people and a conquering people and they were using the same sorts of characteristics that the other cultures did in that time, which I don't necessarily think that God wanted per se either.
But I also believe that he brought in Rahab, he brought in Naomi and Ruth.
He brought in so many different characters that would never have been a part of his promise to eventually be in the line of Jesus in the long term.
And so you can't take the Bible and just look at the parts that are fun to see and all of the interesting stories or just knowing that Jesus walked on water and fed many people once with so little food.
You need to look at everything else to understand the story of the people who wrote it.
You need to realize that David more than likely absolutely did rape Bathsheba and all of these terrible things and recognizing that David was not a good person a lot of his life.
But also recognizing that there was still a God still pursued David and David still somewhat pursued God until the end.
He didn't sleep with that young woman that they tried to put next to him.
So that's a good sign, but it's progress.
Now, I to me, looking at the Bible, I see it as a place that I can pull some really interesting stories and some really interesting things and try to understand the peoples of time that were writing them and all these kind of things and recognize that there is always nuance to what we are teaching.
I don't think I think we need to take a better, more centralized view of the Bible than the hyper conservative.
Everything is literal and the hyper liberal.
Everything is not possibly literal or that everything can be bent to our desires.
I think we need to let it inform where it feels informed and let in my opinion, like God lead you to that information rather than try to find it myself.
Do you do you do any teaching like you volunteer occasion?
I will. I'll do like I'll sub in for when my wife is sick or she has to be doing something else.
But a lot of my discussions with the kids tend to be a little more personal than like absolute teachings.
And for the most part, my wife and I are very intentional in keeping our personal opinions out of the teaching itself.
So like I would never espouse to our students that old Earth creationism is the only way that it could possibly be because I don't necessarily want to alienate anybody.
I don't want to have a theological discussion with somebody who is not as educated as I am because I don't want to influence them in a way that isn't necessary.
I'd rather them have the beliefs they have and eventually grow to mature in them or maybe find something different or whatever else than espouse something I think is right.
When I could very, very easily be wrong.
Interesting. How do you so if you're going sitting down and or you open your Bible to have a personal study, what is that?
What does that look like to you? Like how does it feel?
A lot of times when I'm opening up the Bible, I'm looking to find some passage I found meeting in previously or whatever else like for me, a really important passage falls more.
My practice probably falls more under meditation than anything else.
But it's the Shema in Deuteronomy. In fact, I have Shema tattooed on my forearm.
And so it's the same repetition of that over and over again is a very nice way to clear my head, but also kind of recenter a little bit.
And I take comfort in the fact that this has been a tradition for many, many centuries and millennia at this point for people to recite this over and over and over and over again.
And I find comfort in taking part of that, just like I think I find comfort in reading a rosary or praying a rosary.
I don't, but I feel like I would.
Do you want to explain what the Shema is?
Yeah, the way I tend to explain it is that it's the John 3.16 of the Jews.
Sure.
But it's the listener Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, love the Lord your God with all your...
I forget. It's different technically in the Old Testament than this.
Right.
We usually say it. And I say it in Hebrew more often than I say it in English.
Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai Yachad.
It's the first line of it, but I want it. We did like the first several verses, but I don't want to offend anybody with my white tongue and bad pronunciation.
Yeah, geez, assimilating another culture.
Unbelievable.
Right? I know. How dare I.
But I love the Shema because it feels like a meditation, honestly. It feels like I can recenter a lot better under that than I would under other things.
There's better options.
Yeah. One thing that I took away that I really liked I haven't done forever because it involves a labyrinth.
Okay.
Have you heard about walking the labyrinth?
No.
So my school had one.
Man, if I'm going to talk about this, we're going to have to include an image, Chris, or something, which I'll find.
I'll actually post it in the general chat in this Discord, too.
But it was so there's a difference between I think people have a misunderstanding of what a labyrinth is versus a maze.
So mazes have dead ends. Labyrinths do not.
Besides it leading to like the center. So it would be like this big circle almost with a path going through it.
But basically it's one singular path that you walk.
And basically people would pray or meditate and you would walk through this.
So your body knows what it's doing and you're supposed to kind of go into a meditative state.
And as you go closer to the center, you're supposed to like visualize almost that you're getting closer to God in a sense where like you're shedding everything that's going on in your life.
Basically, and trying to become one with God.
And as you get closer to the center, you're getting closer and closer.
And then you spend time there in the center and then you walk back out the same way you came in.
And this was the practice that I really enjoyed.
We had this design outside, like on concrete, like they put it in the middle of like trees and stuff.
And in my spiritual formation class each morning, we'd go and walk the labyrinth before class.
And I would still do that like outside of that class.
But now I like that is a very specific thing that you need in order to practice.
And those are not easily found.
No, not really.
Like there's something about like since it's only one path, you don't have to think about it, but you get to like move through it.
And you're like making this whole journey.
It's basically the idea of pilgrimage in a small form factor.
I really like that.
That's really cool.
Me too.
But I have not been able to do it in so long.
It was so fun.
Chris, I think I already told you about that when I was like going to school.
There's one actually just down the street for me.
I've walked it like half a dozen times.
Isn't it nice?
There's something about it.
I guess you have to be in the mindset for it, though.
You definitely have to be in a mindset for it.
I think it's difficult the first couple of times to like understand what you're doing.
Oh, yeah.
It takes practice.
Yeah, it feels awkward.
I've never been like a really spiritual person, like spiritual practices.
There's definitely a nice practice.
I enjoyed it.
Nate, if you ever find a labyrinth around you, they're usually in big cathedrals most of the time.
I'm sure there's one.
Try to find one.
Do it.
Look up some writings people have written about it and different stuff.
And there were like almost like meditations that you would go through just to get into this space.
It was very...
It's probably the most peaceful I've felt was walking in a labyrinth.
Gotcha.
I'll have to keep that in mind.
That sounds really cool.
I did find...
I pulled out my Bible for Deuteronomy 6.4 if you want me to actually read it rather than try to bring it from memory.
Sure.
The reason why I have Shema on my forearm, it's technically right below my elbow, is because the word for hand is technically your whole family.
And so I wanted to bind it on my hand, but at the same time make it so that I could hide it under a sleeve if I needed to.
And so that's where I got it tattooed.
And part of that too is when I got it tattooed, I wanted to be a counselor, but also just in general practice, the word Shema just means...
It's the command form of listen.
And so it's a reminder to listen.
And I wrote it towards myself rather than towards other people because most people can't read Hebrew anyway.
And so it's nice to be able to have that reminder.
In your Hebrew class, did you hear where the word Jehovah came from?
I love that.
It's one of my favorite facts to tell people.
Jehovah is kind of made up.
So in Hebrew, the characters are only consonants.
And so I think to make it easier on us, I don't think they had vowel points in the past, but I think that was a later addition.
Master Reads added it later on.
Right.
So now when you're learning Hebrew, they put different dots and notations to say which vowels go in between each consonant.
And in the Bible, what we translate, I believe as I am or like whatever the Lord's name, they took that.
And then the word Adonai, which is just based on Lord, which I think some people know like Adonai, but it could be used for just like a normal Lord, I guess a title.
But they took the vowel points from Adonai, put it on God's name, and it says Jehovah.
Did I get that right?
Yes, the intention being so that you don't say the Lord's name in vain.
You say Adonai when you're reading over it rather than whatever the actual tetragrammaton is.
Sorry, the four consonants that make up God's name.
So when they're reading, they aren't potentially saying his name in vain.
And so, yes, it would be pronounced similar to Jehovah.
And so my favorite line is, is it days of Elijah?
My Hebrew teacher likes to sing instead of there's no God like Jehovah.
He likes to sing there's no God named Jehovah over and over and over and over again.
Hilarious. Great joke.
Perfect.
So now everyone knows where Jehovah came from.
Yeah, because like our best guess, like since I don't care that much and a lot of people don't care that much anymore.
Like we're saying Yahweh, Yahweh.
Right. Those are the same characters that tetragrammaton or whatever it's called.
Those are the same four characters that also can be pronounced Jehovah because for some reason the Y and the J's are like almost the same in Hebrew.
I don't get it.
Well, it would be like Jehovah.
Yeah, Jehovah.
But we like to translate it with J's like they didn't really have J's.
I don't think in there it's like Jesus would be now would be similar to Josh.
Yeah, I hated reading Hebrew with all the gutterals.
So fun.
I think it's fun.
It's it's not great when you're congested, but I would imagine.
Yeah, our closest approximation is Yahweh when we don't actually know the true way it would have been pronounced.
Right. Because if it was oral tradition and they weren't willing to say God's name, what are you going to do?
Did you know that the reason why we call bears bears is because of a very similar thing?
No.
The I believe it's from it's a Germanic origin, but we bear translate to something similar to like I forget what it is.
But the true name of bear they wouldn't say because saying it would call it in their opinion and their like beliefs that so similar as to like you must not be named in Harry Potter.
Yeah, no, the you know, the episode of SpongeBob with the sea bear and they have the circles and stuff.
It's it's right.
It's the same thing.
I sick episode.
All right.
Is there anything else that you have, Chris?
I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I had thought of something earlier, but it's gone from my mind.
I mean, I can go on for a long time.
But 10 is my cut off.
Once we hit that, it's just like I done.
I think that's fantastic.
Really glad you reached out, Nate.
Yeah, I was I was interested because I saw a post from Ryan talking about it.
I was like, huh, I'll listen to it.
I mean, I listen to podcasts forever.
Like, do you know the podcast lore?
I've been listening to it since he was on his ninth episode.
I found it on accident because I was looking for a podcast about folklore and he was on his ninth episode when I started listening to it.
I haven't really kept up with it, but he's passed, I think, 200 at this point and had an Amazon TV show like.
Yeah, he did pretty well.
Manky, right?
Yep.
I've been listening to podcasts for a very long time at this point, well over a year.
Listen to his other show.
So many of them.
But no, not really.
I haven't listened to many of them a long time.
That wasn't a fair description.
But now I haven't really listened to any of Aaron Manky stuff for a while just because I got I don't know.
I needed something lighter sometimes at this point.
I drive so much from my job that I just listen to podcasts the whole time.
So you guys have entered my rotation.
Awesome.
We appreciate that.
Um, is there any closing words you want to say?
I don't know.
I don't do anything.
Cool, cool, cool.
You didn't ask me what my bright spot was, but that's OK.
Whatever.
That's true.
We haven't been doing bright spots with the people we bring on.
We don't do that.
We should mix that in more.
People tend to like it.
It's a nice way to get to know your hosts.
Just saying.
I didn't know you had cats, but now I know you like to carry them in backpacks.
Yep.
You can you can say your bright spot to end it off if you want.
It's going to take me a bit to get to the bright aspect of it.
So my grandmother passed away last Sunday or Sunday before last.
I'm sorry.
I appreciate it.
She has been dealing with pancreatic cancer for over three years now.
And so there is a bright spot in that she is no longer having to deal with that.
And I'm happy for that.
Sorry to bring that to a damper, but no, it's OK.
My grandpa passed away last year from cancer as well.
So I it's a it's a conflicting time.
Like cancer is a bit.
Yeah.
Oh, I'm also that was the same feelings I had when he passed.
We got a lot more years than we should have had, which I'm very appreciative of.
Same with my grandmother.
She went into remission at one point, but then it came back.
And when it comes back, that means it's not going to go away this time usually.
And so we we were given a year at the as the longest.
And she went just a little bit longer than that.
But yeah, most of the time with pancreatic cancer, you don't live very long after diagnosis.
So I'm very blessed.
Yeah, I'm glad you got those experiences then at the end there.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Well, thanks for coming on our show and having a great discussion with us.
Honestly, we honestly didn't really know what to expect going into this because we haven't really talked to you in a while.
But this was a great conversation. It was awesome getting to catch up with you.
So thanks very much for coming on.
Thank you. Thanks for having me. A lot of fun.
Yeah, really appreciate it.
I'm glad you reached out.
Also enjoyed the conversation a lot.
And maybe we'll see more of you later.
A little teaser there until next time.
This is Paul Wintour's question.
Goodbye and we love you.
Well, it's definitely not a Bible podcast anymore.
I've been saying Hail Satan at the end of all of them and Chris edits them out.
I totally edit them out.
Thanks for watching.
you