WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:03.060 Welcome to hallway transgressions. I'm Chris. I'm Ryan. 00:03.220 --> 00:10.420 We are two private school alumni and this podcast serves to examine the worldviews of Christian pastors and teachers through a postmodern lens. 00:10.420 --> 00:15.780 Hey Ryan, what's your bright spot? Well, for the past couple of weeks, 00:16.460 --> 00:24.220 uh, let me give some context first. So I have been living a pretty sedentary lifestyle since like 00:24.660 --> 00:26.660 junior year of college and 00:26.660 --> 00:32.360 I was like I should probably be more active or else I'm just gonna continue gaining weight. 00:32.360 --> 00:37.120 So I was like lifting three days a week for a while, 00:37.400 --> 00:42.280 like I'd say a couple of months and I thought it would be one of those things where it's like, yeah, this sucks, 00:42.280 --> 00:48.020 but if I do it enough, I'll start to like enjoy it, like how runners say they enjoy running after a while. 00:48.020 --> 00:55.840 I think it's all bullshit. I was lifting thinking it would get better and I just started hating it more and more. 00:55.840 --> 01:01.200 And more. So I was like, what can I do to have fun while being active? 01:01.480 --> 01:08.560 Most of those things would be sports that have to involve other people in coordinating and scheduling, which sounds like a nightmare, 01:09.220 --> 01:11.220 until I found a 01:11.580 --> 01:19.400 climbing gym here that I have joined. So the past couple of weeks I have taken up the activity of 01:20.260 --> 01:22.540 climbing, specifically bouldering, which is 01:22.540 --> 01:26.340 climbing on walls that aren't as high and you don't have harnesses or anything. 01:26.340 --> 01:29.900 And so they have like different routes, like different colored 01:30.940 --> 01:34.380 holds, I guess. I don't know like terms yet, 01:35.060 --> 01:39.840 terminology, but they have like different colored routes and they have them like labeled on how difficult they are. 01:39.840 --> 01:44.620 So I've been trying to get all of like the, there's V1-V2 are the easiest ones. 01:44.980 --> 01:46.980 I've been trying to get all of those and 01:46.980 --> 01:53.260 today I got one of the two remaining ones that I hadn't been able to get. 01:53.260 --> 01:59.340 I also, the bigger point is today I was able to like make a friend, which is 01:59.980 --> 02:01.980 unheard of given my social anxiety. 02:02.980 --> 02:07.860 He was the one that came up to me though, so like I don't take any credit for that. 02:07.860 --> 02:14.020 I usually just don't talk to anyone and just like think about it like wanting to talk to someone and then it just never happens 02:14.020 --> 02:16.020 because social anxiety. 02:16.020 --> 02:22.020 Anyways, met this dude. He's super cool. He's only been climbing for like a month, he said, 02:22.020 --> 02:24.340 but he's already pretty good, way better than me. 02:25.060 --> 02:30.780 So yeah, it's been a lot of fun, way more fun than lifting and it is definitely 02:31.420 --> 02:35.460 more of a workout than you would, like than what I thought it was at least. 02:35.620 --> 02:41.820 Like I go in there and I'm sore for the next like two or three days from like an hour 02:42.660 --> 02:44.220 session of climbing. 02:44.220 --> 02:48.020 Today I went really hard and I'm probably not gonna be able to go on Friday, 02:48.020 --> 02:50.500 which I usually try to do Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. 02:51.060 --> 02:56.820 Probably not gonna be able to make it because if I do I'm just not gonna be able to even climb because I'm gonna be so 02:56.820 --> 03:00.980 sore. I'm already sore from today. But yeah, it's been a lot of fun. 03:00.980 --> 03:07.460 I think it's actually something that I can stick to to be active considering it's like a solo sport. 03:08.140 --> 03:12.300 A solo sport and you can have friends. And I might be able to talk to people. 03:12.300 --> 03:18.180 I should, I've been thinking about trying to force myself to meet one person every time I go, but that sounds like a lot. 03:18.180 --> 03:20.180 I 03:20.580 --> 03:26.060 know I've met, I've met two people. This guy I met today and the other one is a worker there 03:26.060 --> 03:28.060 so he was forced to talk to me. So. 03:29.820 --> 03:32.260 But he seemed pretty cool. He was giving me tips and whatnot. 03:33.540 --> 03:39.700 That's nice. Is it, is it like a big facility? Yeah, it's actually, it's really cool. So they've got 03:39.700 --> 03:44.260 three different bouldering walls all with their own little names and whatnot. 03:45.220 --> 03:51.220 They've got a mezzanine area on top of one of those walls that has ping pong tables and like hangout areas. 03:51.220 --> 03:58.980 They've got a cafe there with like protein smoothies, coffee, whatever you want with like tables and stuff to just 03:58.980 --> 04:05.140 sit out and work if you really wanted to. And then if you're a member, which I now am, you get 04:05.140 --> 04:13.700 free yoga classes and they have basic, they call it block basics. A place is called Block Haven. 04:13.700 --> 04:22.740 They call these beginner courses block, block basics. And so I'm scheduled to be in one next Wednesday where it teaches 04:22.740 --> 04:30.180 beginner climbing techniques and whatnot. So yeah. Very cool. I'm looking into shoes and stuff because they only include 04:30.180 --> 04:38.020 rentals for the first month. And let me tell you, climbing shoes are expensive. I'm sure. Like decent, just like every hobby. 04:38.020 --> 04:45.940 Decent ones are like 120 to 150. It's crazy. I'm going to try to snag some this weekend. We are recording the weekend 04:46.580 --> 04:51.940 or close to the weekend of Labor Day. So I believe there's probably going to be sales somewhere that I can take advantage of. 04:51.940 --> 04:57.940 So I think I'm going to try to pick up a pair soon. Yeah, that's pretty funny. 04:57.940 --> 05:05.860 How about you? What's your bright spot? My bright spot is in a, it's been a long time coming and I'm finally moving to Chicago. 05:05.860 --> 05:13.860 I've been wanting to leave Indiana for a while now to go to a different state and I'm very excited for a couple of reasons. 05:13.860 --> 05:21.860 So one, I don't have to drive to get anywhere. I can just walk and take mass transit and I'm very excited not to have to touch a car. 05:21.860 --> 05:27.300 If I don't really want to drive, very excited for that. And also just because I'm going to be in Chicago, 05:27.300 --> 05:35.940 and also just all the things that Chicago does and they just, they have all their summer stuff so that they can get people to like leave their buildings in the summer. 05:35.940 --> 05:41.780 Maybe get some sunlight before we all hibernate in the winter. But yeah, I'm very excited to be moving. 05:42.260 --> 05:53.380 Yeah, that's cool. What was keeping you from moving before? Money. Money, which isn't a problem for Chris now. He's stacked. 05:53.380 --> 06:01.380 Less of a problem. Now I have a remote job as well. That helps a lot too. That's true. You don't have to try to find a new one. 06:01.380 --> 06:09.380 Yeah, I mean, I'm moving to where a decent amount of my coworkers live and where some of our biggest clients are. 06:09.380 --> 06:17.380 So I'm not moving for work, but it's going to make doing some testing and stuff a lot easier to be in the city instead of having to do it remote. 06:17.380 --> 06:25.380 Yeah, there's always a lot of things to do around there too. Yeah, go swim in the lake. 06:25.380 --> 06:35.380 Oh god, no. That's freezing. Body of water. I was boarding. Yeah, I was boarding on the lake. 06:35.380 --> 06:43.380 They built like a whole lake shore a couple years ago. It was a while ago. I shouldn't say they just built it, but they just did some renovations and stuff. 06:43.380 --> 06:47.380 They're building a lake and walking trail all along the lake shore around the city now. And it's very cool. 06:47.380 --> 06:57.380 But as I was, I was, I took my board up a couple of months ago and I was just boarding down there and I was walking. 06:57.380 --> 07:04.380 I was down by the lake and it was just amazing how many people at 8 a.m. just had their little floaties attached to their back. 07:04.380 --> 07:10.380 And we're just like swimming out into the lake and back like just like deep water and then going back to the beach. 07:10.380 --> 07:15.380 I was very surprised how many people would swim. I also saw a very disgusting dead fish. 07:15.380 --> 07:20.380 It was very large and it was just floating there, kind of half decomposed. 07:20.380 --> 07:28.380 I was like, I don't know if I want to swim in there, but I'm glad it's an option that I can just walk to a place I can swim if I want to, which won't happen. 07:28.380 --> 07:35.380 But if I want to, I can. And I think that's really cool. Yeah, you can find some cool hammocking spots too if you got hammocks. 07:35.380 --> 07:41.380 I'm going to have to get some hammocks. I think I think it's going to happen. Finally, I'm going to go hammocking. 07:41.380 --> 07:45.380 Just chill and read book. I guess Millennium Park. Yeah, that could be cool. 07:45.380 --> 07:52.380 I didn't really think about that. I'll do that as well. Also, when the water wars happen, I'm by a very big body of fresh water. 07:52.380 --> 08:00.380 So that'll be nice. Yeah, there you go. That good drinking water with decomposing fish in it. 08:00.380 --> 08:07.380 It's surprising how much the Great Lakes water supply or how much the Midwest uses the Great Lakes water supply. 08:07.380 --> 08:11.380 I'm always surprised at how many like how much how much we take out of the Great Lakes. 08:11.380 --> 08:17.380 And yet it still gets replenished mostly well until in a couple of years it won't be. But for now, it's pretty amazing. 08:17.380 --> 08:26.380 I just wanted to bring a couple of things up. So I have learned that Jed has left Lakewood to pursue pursue his education career. 08:26.380 --> 08:32.380 The pot this hallway digressions still seems to be on summer break. 08:32.380 --> 08:37.380 I imagine until the first couple of weeks of school are done, they won't have time to sit down and record. 08:37.380 --> 08:45.380 I am pretty sure Jed won't be a host anymore. So he was a host for just season three when he worked that one year at Lakewood. 08:45.380 --> 08:53.380 I imagine he won't be a host anymore. I just wanted to let everyone know if you enjoyed listening to Jed, he will probably no longer be a host. 08:53.380 --> 09:00.380 And the other announcement kind of thing is we want to have more guests on the show like Becca, our last episode. 09:00.380 --> 09:06.380 So if you want to come on and share your experiences, please reach out to hey at hallway transgressions dot com. 09:06.380 --> 09:15.380 If you're interested in being a guest and kind of chilling and hanging out, if you have interesting stories you want to tell that is H E Y at hallway transgressions. 09:15.380 --> 09:22.380 As in like saying, hey, not like like, hey, like is similar to straw. It's not that one. 09:22.380 --> 09:27.380 Well, today we have an exciting double feature. 09:27.380 --> 09:35.380 We've decided to cover the next two episodes from hallway digressions. 09:35.380 --> 09:46.380 So the two episodes we will be covering today are season three, episode six, which is called to baptize or not to baptize a Romeo and Juliet story. 09:46.380 --> 09:51.380 And also season three, episode seven, does Yahweh equal Allah? 09:51.380 --> 09:56.380 I just I do have to say that the to baptize or not to baptize a Romeo and Juliet story. 09:56.380 --> 10:01.380 Very funny title. It's pretty good considering the context. Yes. 10:01.380 --> 10:06.380 Yes, pretty good. So first off, we're starting with the baptism one. 10:06.380 --> 10:18.380 So we're going to I feel like it's OK for us to skip the introductory dialogue between the men who host this podcast. 10:18.380 --> 10:23.380 They talk about different things. I don't think we need to cover that. 10:23.380 --> 10:29.380 They episode. The real episode starts 16 minutes into the 35 minute episode. 10:29.380 --> 10:32.380 Yes. So Slougher was gone for both of these. 10:32.380 --> 10:40.380 So it was just Nick, Luke and Jed that were discussing these topics. 10:40.380 --> 10:46.380 So the first one they had a student or former student. I'm not sure they had someone message in 10:46.380 --> 10:55.380 asking about one of their friends who is has been dating a girl for I think it was like six to nine months or somewhere in there. 10:55.380 --> 10:59.380 Not under a year. They'd been dating for under a year. 10:59.380 --> 11:10.380 And the issue that he saw or they saw between these two was that she was part of the Church of Christ, which they have. 11:10.380 --> 11:18.380 I think you can call it a doctrine. They have a doctrine in their belief system that baptism is necessary for salvation. 11:18.380 --> 11:26.380 It is something that you need in order to be saved. The guy in that relationship, he did not believe that. 11:26.380 --> 11:31.380 And him and his family, I don't think any of them had really been baptized. They had never seen a need for it. 11:31.380 --> 11:39.380 They didn't believe that you needed to be baptized, but they were still from a Christian background, Christian faith, Christian worldview. 11:39.380 --> 11:50.380 So they were wondering if that would potentially be a deal breaker between these two since she believes baptism is necessary and he does not and he has not been baptized. 11:50.380 --> 11:57.380 The question was really convoluted and it took a while for them to read it out loud. 11:57.380 --> 12:02.380 And it was just kind of odd. Like just to like clarify a little bit more. 12:02.380 --> 12:09.380 The person asking the question to the podcast is not involved in the relationship where this possibly could have been an issue. 12:09.380 --> 12:13.380 It was just a friend of these two who were in a relationship. 12:13.380 --> 12:17.380 And it didn't seem like the conversation had come up before. I don't know. 12:17.380 --> 12:25.380 It seemed unclear. There wasn't any real specifics about whether baptism was a contention point at all or if it was not. 12:25.380 --> 12:28.380 I thought that was kind of weird. And also, yeah. 12:28.380 --> 12:37.380 So she believes supposedly, according to her church, believes that baptism is necessary for salvation. 12:37.380 --> 12:42.380 And the boyfriend did not seem to believe that and also wasn't baptized. 12:42.380 --> 12:49.380 It was a little weird. Yeah, which honestly to me doesn't sound like that big of a deal. 12:49.380 --> 12:54.380 But as you will soon hear, it seems to be a big deal to these guys. 12:54.380 --> 13:03.380 So like it's just it's so weird that this person asking the question didn't seem to be like clarify on how they're even involved. 13:03.380 --> 13:06.380 I don't know. I thought it was kind of a weird question. 13:06.380 --> 13:14.380 So I think this this idea about baptism, I forget what gospel it's in. 13:14.380 --> 13:21.380 But it's Jesus talking to was it Nicodemus? I forget. I was still in that study Bible. 13:21.380 --> 13:33.380 Anyways, it comes from that you must be born again through water and spirit, I think, is how one of the translations puts it in, 13:33.380 --> 13:43.380 which the water referred to in that passage does specifically refer to water on earth like a body of water on earth. 13:43.380 --> 13:47.380 So it's talking about physical water, no like metaphors or anything there. 13:47.380 --> 13:53.380 It's pretty specifically water. So honestly, I don't know why more people don't believe that baptism is necessary. 13:53.380 --> 13:59.380 It's like a small view within Christianity from my point of view and from my upbringing. 13:59.380 --> 14:06.380 But I'm surprised people don't read that more literally, given how literally a lot of people read the scriptures. 14:06.380 --> 14:10.380 Yeah, with a lot of other things, it seems that it's literal. 14:10.380 --> 14:20.380 And that's what I always find weird about baptism is like there's a couple of times where people are like they're saved by an apostle and then they're immediately baptized. 14:20.380 --> 14:24.380 So like that was an early church doctrine, it seemed. And you're right. 14:24.380 --> 14:29.380 It was when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus in John 3, 5. Yeah. 14:29.380 --> 14:40.380 And so honestly, if I was still a believer in the Bible, I mean, that's pretty convincing that baptism seems necessary based on what the Bible has to say. 14:40.380 --> 14:54.380 Anyways, there's a lot of other scriptures that have other words that they use to that they being churches that don't believe in necessary baptism or baptismal regeneration, baptismal regeneration. 14:54.380 --> 15:03.380 That's it. So the conversation gets kicked off with Nick going in and first asking the question like, well, why hasn't he been baptized? 15:03.380 --> 15:13.380 Why haven't you been baptized? Like usually even in a church that doesn't require baptism, they say that's usually the second step after salvation they use after. 15:13.380 --> 15:22.380 So you're saved after giving your life to Christ, professing your belief in Christ, and then you get baptized to profess your belief to the church. 15:22.380 --> 15:27.380 So basically it's like why haven't you been baptized? Which I mean, fair question. 15:27.380 --> 15:33.380 Like if it's going to be a contention, which I don't we don't even know if it is a contention in their relationship. 15:33.380 --> 15:38.380 But if it was, I feel like it would be pretty easy just to get baptized, even if you don't believe it's necessary. 15:38.380 --> 15:44.380 Like what harm could it do? You know, just to ease the mind of the girlfriend. 15:44.380 --> 15:49.380 But so that was our first thing, which like, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. 15:49.380 --> 15:58.380 And then they go on to speculation about what thoughts might be coming up into her mind, what thoughts might be coming up into his mind. 15:58.380 --> 16:03.380 And I don't know if that's OK to do. I'm just repeating what they said. 16:03.380 --> 16:16.380 But they basically start speaking for her, saying that based on that belief, she doesn't think he saved, which yes, if she believes in the necessity of baptism, then she probably doesn't think he saved. 16:16.380 --> 16:24.380 But then they go on to say that by not having been baptized, she would think he's a nonbeliever. 16:24.380 --> 16:30.380 I don't know where that jump comes from. I feel like belief is different from salvation. 16:30.380 --> 16:34.380 I don't know about you, but belief in salvation, different things. 16:34.380 --> 16:38.380 They probably just time together because their whole salvation is based on belief. 16:38.380 --> 16:44.380 But they say that she then would be violating scriptures by dating a nonbeliever. 16:44.380 --> 16:51.380 You know, if that is the case, then she's actually violating the scriptures by dating a nonbeliever. 16:51.380 --> 16:59.380 Right. The irony here. Yeah, right. Right. So that would be that should be a problem for her. 16:59.380 --> 17:05.380 Yeah. If he is not saved, according to her definition of that. 17:05.380 --> 17:14.380 So they are really not for this relationship since he doesn't believe in baptismal regeneration. She does. 17:14.380 --> 17:18.380 Which they the host also don't believe in baptismal regeneration. 17:18.380 --> 17:26.380 So it's just it's kind of this whole bizarre jump into being like, yeah, in her mind, she's violating the scriptures as she believes. 17:26.380 --> 17:29.380 And so they're unequally yoked kind of thing. 17:29.380 --> 17:35.380 And it's like, wait, but you also don't believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. 17:35.380 --> 17:39.380 And then they don't have like any argument against that whole concept in general. 17:39.380 --> 17:42.380 They just kind of go with it for this question. It cracks me up. 17:42.380 --> 17:48.380 And then at one point, Nick even mentions that none of this advice he's giving is really biblically grounded. 17:48.380 --> 17:53.380 It's more from a wisdom standpoint. But that's that's just my my thought. 17:53.380 --> 18:03.380 I don't think I have like a biblical argument for that, but maybe it's just like a an argument from from wisdom principles. 18:03.380 --> 18:07.380 Yeah, that's a good differentiation there. 18:07.380 --> 18:12.380 And then Luke later agrees and basically says the same thing later in the podcast. 18:12.380 --> 18:15.380 It's like, what is even happening? I don't know. 18:15.380 --> 18:22.380 I don't think they were prepared for this one either, but they keep going on about how she's viewing him as an unbeliever. 18:22.380 --> 18:26.380 And I don't we don't know whether that is true. I mean, he's a Christian. 18:26.380 --> 18:29.380 She's a Christian just from different faith nominations. 18:29.380 --> 18:32.380 I think they would both see each other as believers. 18:32.380 --> 18:34.380 She would just be worried about his salvation. 18:34.380 --> 18:41.380 That's really what they they get to is that it's a big deal because the issue involves salvation, 18:41.380 --> 18:44.380 because what is right here and right now doesn't matter. 18:44.380 --> 18:47.380 All that matters is your afterlife. 18:47.380 --> 18:51.380 I'll put words in their mouth if they're going to put them in other people's. 18:51.380 --> 18:56.380 Within that that faith, it makes sense like salvation seems to be a big deal. 18:56.380 --> 19:01.380 It seems to be one of their main focuses actually is whether you're saved or not. 19:01.380 --> 19:05.380 And it's really only focused on afterlife, heaven or hell. 19:05.380 --> 19:13.380 Being saved doesn't seem to have like as much of an impact on the press, at least from what I hear from them. 19:13.380 --> 19:19.380 Salvation has mostly to do with when you die, which I think is a big issue in the church. 19:19.380 --> 19:21.380 Like the whole focus is on that. 19:21.380 --> 19:24.380 That's not what Jesus teachings were saying. 19:24.380 --> 19:29.380 He was really talking about present, bringing heaven to earth, having the earth become heavenly. 19:29.380 --> 19:35.380 Anyways, so they were saying if neither side moves their stance that it would be a deal breaker. 19:35.380 --> 19:44.380 And they go on to talk about how it would cause issues mainly like when it comes to children, like when they have kids. 19:44.380 --> 19:51.380 They have parents that have differing views on such a thing that that would be harmful to the kids and that they need ideological unity, 19:51.380 --> 19:57.380 which that's the gist of what I think I want to get into on this view. 19:57.380 --> 20:00.380 But that's just my thought. 20:00.380 --> 20:10.380 I don't think I have like a biblical argument for that, but maybe it's just like an argument from wisdom principles. 20:10.380 --> 20:14.380 Yeah, that's a good differentiation there. 20:14.380 --> 20:19.380 It might be something that you're able to gloss over for a little while and ignore and sweep under the rug. 20:19.380 --> 20:25.380 It will come back when the pregnancy test comes back positive. 20:25.380 --> 20:27.380 And now all of a sudden, what do we do with the kids? 20:27.380 --> 20:39.380 You know, and this is the same thing that I think at a deeper level and probably a more damaging level happens when a believer marries an unbeliever. 20:39.380 --> 20:42.380 And they say, yeah, no, I'm OK with you going to church and things like that. 20:42.380 --> 20:44.380 And so, you know, he's a decent guy. 20:44.380 --> 20:46.380 Of course, he's a decent guy. 20:46.380 --> 20:50.380 Then all of a sudden you have kids and you're trying to get your kids to love Jesus. 20:50.380 --> 20:54.380 But that over here seems to be doing just fine without. 20:54.380 --> 20:59.380 And it can become a really it will become a really big deal. 20:59.380 --> 21:01.380 And so this is a lesser degree. 21:01.380 --> 21:05.380 But still, I would say a pretty pivotal one, a pretty significant one. 21:05.380 --> 21:13.380 It's not it's not one that, you know, can can be be swept under the rug very easily. 21:13.380 --> 21:20.380 And this idea that in order to have good relationships with people, you have to have ideological unity. 21:20.380 --> 21:22.380 And I don't know if they would necessarily say that. 21:22.380 --> 21:26.380 I think they were saying that more because it is like a romantic relationship. 21:26.380 --> 21:31.380 People that are going to be their lives are going to be intertwined deeper than just like friendships or something like that. 21:31.380 --> 21:39.380 But I would probably say that even then, they probably wouldn't want people fraternizing with the enemy or like having bad influences as friends. 21:39.380 --> 21:43.380 When I was growing up, it was always like, choose your friends wisely. 21:43.380 --> 21:48.380 They really wanted me to have Christian friends because those would be good influences. 21:48.380 --> 21:55.380 And if I was friends with non-Christians, that would be bad because they would rub off on me or something and I would be poorly influenced. 21:55.380 --> 21:59.380 And so I would probably venture to say that they would probably say similar things, 21:59.380 --> 22:04.380 maybe not on something like this issue, but like if we're talking about believers and non-believers, 22:04.380 --> 22:09.380 I think they're against close relationships between the two. 22:09.380 --> 22:13.380 And that's really what I think is a harmful idea to put into kids' heads. 22:13.380 --> 22:20.380 Like, wouldn't it be so good for kids to see their parents have differing views, 22:20.380 --> 22:27.380 but rather than like arguing, getting into heated debates, having good conversations, still having a loving relationship between two people that differ? 22:27.380 --> 22:35.380 That seems like a precedent that needs to be set for kids, not that you need to agree with people in order to be friends with them. 22:35.380 --> 22:42.380 Like they need to agree with you. You need to have ideological unity to be good friends or to have good relationships. 22:42.380 --> 22:46.380 That I think is a harmful idea to be portraying. 22:46.380 --> 22:49.380 It really is divisive. Is that the right word? 22:49.380 --> 22:55.380 It really would divide people because then there's a lot of people that are just going to remain ignorant by not having other perspectives 22:55.380 --> 23:00.380 because they don't want to be in relationships with people that have differing views. 23:00.380 --> 23:04.380 It's a very cyclical thing where it's just you're staying in a bubble. 23:04.380 --> 23:10.380 You are not opening yourself to other ideas so that you can grow as a person. 23:10.380 --> 23:15.380 You are basically meant to stay the same. You need to stay within this, stay the same. 23:15.380 --> 23:19.380 Don't change or leave because that's bad. It's just, it's weird. 23:19.380 --> 23:30.380 Yeah, this episode made me wonder. I was pondering the responses to if this question was framed less as a boyfriend girlfriend relationship 23:30.380 --> 23:37.380 and more of as a concrete, like I wonder if a couple that have been married 20 years and they have like a kid or two, 23:37.380 --> 23:44.380 or maybe even not, if a long term married couple, like one of them deconstructs or changes faith entirely. 23:44.380 --> 23:50.380 Like I'd be very curious their opinion on what this relationship would do because they wouldn't, I don't, 23:50.380 --> 23:59.380 I wondered if they would even preach for a divorce or because right there would be a clear ideological difference in this couple now. 23:59.380 --> 24:04.380 And they were always talking about unity and like having the same ideological beliefs. 24:04.380 --> 24:09.380 But like we change a lot, like all of the time really. 24:09.380 --> 24:14.380 And like it's hard to have the same exact beliefs as someone else in like total lack step. 24:14.380 --> 24:19.380 So like what if someone makes a drastic change of becoming more progressive? 24:19.380 --> 24:24.380 Like what, like I'm trying not to think of like baptism, but like another doctrinal issue. 24:24.380 --> 24:31.380 Like, I mean, what if one of them converts to Catholicism and the other one stays like evangelical conservative Christian? 24:31.380 --> 24:34.380 Like that's a clear ideological difference. 24:34.380 --> 24:39.380 And in this episode, they talk about like loving each other isn't enough, 24:39.380 --> 24:44.380 but would that be enough if they've been married for 20 years or would they just like, 24:44.380 --> 24:49.380 I don't like, I don't, I don't, I don't even know what they would say to like a relationship case like that. 24:49.380 --> 24:52.380 Because a lot of stuff is a lot more permanent when, you know, 24:52.380 --> 24:56.380 you've been in a deep intertwined relationship for another person for 20 years. 24:56.380 --> 25:01.380 And then if one of you changes like a pretty deep set belief system, like religion, 25:01.380 --> 25:08.380 like would you just take them to biblical counseling and try to like indoctrinate them to come back to evangelicalism? 25:08.380 --> 25:14.380 Or like, I'd just be curious to hear a response to a more concrete relationship like that. 25:14.380 --> 25:18.380 Yeah, it would be interesting to hear what they would have to say about that. 25:18.380 --> 25:24.380 But yeah, we could also get into the conversation of works based salvation 25:24.380 --> 25:29.380 because they bring up why they disagree with baptism being a necessity. 25:29.380 --> 25:31.380 And it's because it would make it a workspace salvation. 25:31.380 --> 25:35.380 Like you have to do something, you have to get baptized to be saved. 25:35.380 --> 25:44.380 But if I've always had this issue with this idea of works versus like faith based, is faith not considered work? 25:44.380 --> 25:47.380 Like, don't you still have to do something to be saved? 25:47.380 --> 25:49.380 If I didn't have to do anything to be saved, 25:49.380 --> 25:52.380 if it had nothing to do with the works that I did with things that I did, 25:52.380 --> 25:55.380 then wouldn't everyone be saved? Wouldn't that be universalism? 25:55.380 --> 25:58.380 I've always had that contention with it because it's like, 25:58.380 --> 26:01.380 oh, you're not saved because you don't believe in Christ. 26:01.380 --> 26:03.380 But it's like, but they don't understand. 26:03.380 --> 26:08.380 I just, they try to get people to believe in Christ so they can be saved. 26:08.380 --> 26:10.380 And then they get angry if people don't believe. 26:10.380 --> 26:14.380 But they kind of put it in a framework that like belief is a choice. 26:14.380 --> 26:20.380 And if it's a choice, then that's doing some sort of work that is choosing to believe that's an action. 26:20.380 --> 26:26.380 Yeah, I've always heard it as like, if you, yeah, because I mean, I have the same issues, right? 26:26.380 --> 26:28.380 Of like, if you take it to the most basic, right? 26:28.380 --> 26:31.380 Someone gets saved. What does that mean? 26:31.380 --> 26:39.380 Like traditionally it means they say a prayer of like the Romans road kind of like five step walk through salvation and being saved. 26:39.380 --> 26:43.380 Like I'm a sinner, Jesus saves me kind of thing. Like the sinner's prayer. 26:43.380 --> 26:50.380 But then wouldn't like making the choice of saving, getting saved through the sinner's prayer be a work? 26:50.380 --> 26:53.380 And then on top of that, the argument, not argument, 26:53.380 --> 27:02.380 but the discussion I've always heard around it is like in sermons is like once you are saved, the Holy Spirit enters your heart. 27:02.380 --> 27:08.380 Or, you know, if that's literal or not, I'm still unclear about it because their mystical language gets confusing sometimes. 27:08.380 --> 27:17.380 But and then begins the process of like redemption and sanctification that takes forever, like as a lifetime thing. 27:17.380 --> 27:20.380 And so like you're slowly getting better, but still having mistakes. 27:20.380 --> 27:25.380 And the thing that makes you different is that you admit your mistakes and ask for forgiveness. 27:25.380 --> 27:31.380 And then the redemption part is that you turn away from your mistakes, ask for forgiveness and then keep walking forward. 27:31.380 --> 27:37.380 And they use the King David as like an example of someone slowly getting better, which I disagree with, but that's fine. 27:37.380 --> 27:46.380 Yeah, we a lot of the Old Testament saying, yeah, that's a discussion for another time. 27:46.380 --> 27:50.380 I feel like I say that I feel like I say that all the time. It's like the discussion for another time. 27:50.380 --> 27:56.380 It's not for now. The last thing I think I want to bring up about what they said is that like, 27:56.380 --> 28:02.380 so they talked about why hasn't he been baptized, that he should be baptized because that's the second step. 28:02.380 --> 28:06.380 But they give this idea that but don't get baptized for her. 28:06.380 --> 28:10.380 That motivation, basically, they're basically saying that motivation isn't good enough. 28:10.380 --> 28:14.380 You shouldn't get baptized just for the sake of making her feel better. 28:14.380 --> 28:18.380 Like that's that shouldn't be your motivation for getting baptized. 28:18.380 --> 28:31.380 So they're making it really difficult on these two over what I think is just a silly, just a silly like I can't think of the word, just a belief that they don't share. 28:31.380 --> 28:35.380 Yeah, well, because they make a joke about like, I don't see if you love her. 28:35.380 --> 28:38.380 Why don't you just get baptized and like solves the whole problem? 28:38.380 --> 28:46.380 Like first off, we don't even know if this is even a problem. This is a friend talking about their friends relationship. 28:46.380 --> 28:49.380 And then second, then you just backtrack and say it's like a joke. 28:49.380 --> 28:58.380 And I was like, well, now you just made the situation really weird because if these two people hear this, they're going to be like and then like he's like, I'm going to get baptized. 28:58.380 --> 29:03.380 Like there's always going to be that self doubt forever now that he just got baptized for her. 29:03.380 --> 29:15.380 Like, yeah, it was super weird. It's like over complicating something that I think all it takes is just discussion, like talking about it. 29:15.380 --> 29:20.380 I don't know. Like, yeah, like spouses are going to have differing beliefs. 29:20.380 --> 29:23.380 I don't think you can have ideological unity your entire life. 29:23.380 --> 29:29.380 And if you do, one of you is just giving into the other one because they don't want to get into an argument. 29:29.380 --> 29:35.380 That's my belief. I mean, yeah, but maybe that is how they think relationships should be. 29:35.380 --> 29:40.380 Right. Like maybe they just don't want to say the word like patriarchal relationship out loud. 29:40.380 --> 29:47.380 But maybe that is really what they're thinking that should happen with like ideological unity. 29:47.380 --> 29:57.380 I was like, one of you submits to the other and I don't think I have to say which gender role does which and traditional one's the Christian marriages head of the family. 29:57.380 --> 30:07.380 So, yeah, well, all of this, all of this language to mean like one thing of like oppressing women into the quote unquote right. 30:07.380 --> 30:13.380 Ideological beliefs. Yeah. And basically, I didn't really consider that till just now. 30:13.380 --> 30:16.380 And now I'm just really thinking about that. That's interesting. 30:16.380 --> 30:24.380 Anyway, yeah, well, I'm here to tell everyone that you can have differing ideological views and still love each other. 30:24.380 --> 30:53.000 Either way, Amarok love you. And one thing that really comes through is also likeasy or 30:53.000 --> 30:57.080 probably cut it off. There's always going to be problems. You're going to be single for life, 30:57.080 --> 31:02.920 which is not an issue, but like if you're basing whether you should be with someone based on whether 31:02.920 --> 31:08.120 you're going to disagree on something, I just think it's silly. It's just something to work 31:08.120 --> 31:13.720 through. Like I'm sure the beliefs that those two hold now, I'm assuming they're young people, 31:13.720 --> 31:19.800 that's an assumption. Their beliefs are going to most likely change in some way or another as they 31:19.800 --> 31:25.000 grow up and you're going to have to work through those types of things. And that's what it's about. 31:25.000 --> 31:29.000 And yeah, when you have kids, that's a good precedent to set. Like I said, like to be able 31:29.000 --> 31:34.280 to have differing views and show your kids that that doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Doesn't 31:34.280 --> 31:39.320 mean you have to cut off a relationship. That's probably a good thing to portray to kids. 31:40.040 --> 31:44.920 But what about when the pregnancy test comes back positive? Then what do we do about the kids? 31:44.920 --> 31:51.080 About whether getting them baptized or not? You know what? That's up to those two. That's up for 31:51.080 --> 31:57.560 them to discuss and talk about. Just because that might be hard to come to a decision on, doesn't 31:57.560 --> 32:02.920 mean you should break off the relationship because who knows how long down the road you may have a 32:02.920 --> 32:10.040 kid and that may cause tension. God. And also, if you truly believe that baptism is the second step, 32:10.040 --> 32:13.720 then I'm pretty sure the kid has agency and if they want to be baptized or not. 32:13.720 --> 32:19.240 So Luke, this doesn't seem like that big of an issue. And I don't know why you said that. 32:19.240 --> 32:23.080 Yeah, the parents aren't the ones to decide whether their kids are going to get baptized. 32:23.080 --> 32:28.680 I guess based on some churches it is like there's infant baptisms and whatnot. 32:29.400 --> 32:35.960 I was baptized as an infant technically in the Catholic Church and double saved. 32:35.960 --> 32:40.920 I don't know if there's any kids that are like, man, I'm so upset that my parents had me baptized 32:40.920 --> 32:45.400 as an infant. I feel like most people are just like, oh yeah, I don't even remember that. It 32:45.400 --> 32:52.360 doesn't really matter that much. Yeah. Also, I would argue that the baby dedication stuff is 32:52.360 --> 32:57.080 basically the same thing as baptism without water. So it's kind of like the same thing that's 32:57.080 --> 33:02.920 happening, but that's fine. Yeah. I don't know. Baptism is weird to me. I mean, I definitely was 33:02.920 --> 33:09.080 peer pressured into getting baptized in sixth grade. I don't know. I don't really... If you 33:09.080 --> 33:13.640 want to get baptized, get baptized. If you have some reason not to get baptized, don't. I don't 33:13.640 --> 33:20.120 know. I'm not you. I'm not here to tell you what to believe. Right. And as much as the church wants 33:20.120 --> 33:26.440 to say that once you get married, you two are one, you're like one being... You're allowed to be 33:26.440 --> 33:33.240 independent people when you're married. You're allowed to have your own ideas and thoughts and 33:33.880 --> 33:36.920 actions. You're just going to be considering the other person too. 33:36.920 --> 33:43.240 You're still two separate individuals. There's a saying that I seem to hear more around the 33:43.240 --> 33:47.080 church than outside the church of like that marriage is hard and marriage is difficult. 33:47.080 --> 33:52.040 I was like, yeah, I mean, relationships can be difficult, but you know what helps a lot? 33:52.040 --> 33:57.240 Being able to like clearly communicate with your partner and like have conversations like this, 33:57.240 --> 34:03.800 like difficult conversations about ideological things and come to conclusions. And like maybe 34:03.800 --> 34:10.600 you conclude that it doesn't really matter or maybe it's a deal breaker for one of you. But most of 34:10.600 --> 34:15.400 the time it turns out that like you can have deep conversations and still disagree about things and 34:15.400 --> 34:19.800 things can still be fine. Like it's not that difficult all of the time unless you don't 34:19.800 --> 34:26.600 communicate, I guess. Right. Yeah. That saying is like my pet peeve. Like I hear it all of the time. 34:26.600 --> 34:32.120 Like people always tell like newlyweds like, oh, the first year is the hardest because marriage is 34:32.120 --> 34:35.960 difficult. It's like, what are you telling? What are you saying? What do you mean? Like I think 34:35.960 --> 34:41.400 they'll be fine as long as they can like communicate and talk. I don't think it's like the marriage 34:41.400 --> 34:46.840 that's hard is like there can be difficult stuff. And like for me and Natalie, like we can have 34:46.840 --> 34:53.080 difficult situations, but it's not like, oh, if this is too difficult, I'm just gonna leave. 34:54.280 --> 34:59.000 Yeah. Like it's not like the marriage is in danger because of the difficult situations. 34:59.000 --> 35:04.600 Yeah. And it's not like it's marriage specifically that does that. Like you can be in a relationship 35:04.600 --> 35:10.760 that's difficult to, that's not marriage. Like, I don't like, can you be dating and like that can 35:10.760 --> 35:16.360 have difficult circumstances? Like it's not that you like you sign a marriage certificate with the 35:16.360 --> 35:21.480 state of Indiana and all of a sudden your like your relationship gets a lot more difficult. Like 35:21.480 --> 35:28.920 that's not really how it works. Yeah. Nope. It isn't. Also, you don't have to be married. It's 35:28.920 --> 35:34.600 not a requirement unless you want to be. Instead of just saying something's hard or relationships 35:34.600 --> 35:41.400 are hard, just say relationships take work. Just expect to put work into a relationship and not 35:41.400 --> 35:46.360 just do nothing for the relationship and hope it goes well. As long as you put in the work, 35:46.360 --> 35:50.760 if you care about the relationship and you put in the work to make it a good relationship, 35:50.760 --> 35:55.160 you'll be fine. Coming from someone who's only been married for four years, but hey, 35:56.280 --> 36:00.280 that's my perspective. That's where it is now. I'm not saying that's the correct one, 36:00.280 --> 36:04.680 but that's where I'm at right now. We'll see where it is later. All right. So that was the first 36:04.680 --> 36:10.920 episode talking about baptism. I think we got our ideas across. We don't think it's a deal breaker 36:10.920 --> 36:16.600 for those two. And also I kind of feel bad that their relationship is now in two different podcasts 36:16.600 --> 36:21.320 without, I don't think it was with their consent. Who knows if that student asked like, hey, can I 36:21.320 --> 36:25.240 ask a question about your relationship on a podcast? I doubt that happened. So now their 36:25.240 --> 36:29.880 relationship has been talked on about on two different podcasts on whether their relationship 36:29.880 --> 36:37.160 is valid or not. So sorry about that, but it is what it is. Your relationship is valid. You don't 36:37.160 --> 36:43.400 need us to say it's valid for it to be valid. It's all, it's your guy's relationship. Anyways. 36:43.400 --> 36:49.160 If you want us to take it down, just email me please and I will. 36:49.160 --> 36:55.160 If you don't want your relationship talked about on another podcast, let us know. We'll 36:55.880 --> 37:02.280 re-edit and just include the next episode. Oh no, I didn't even think about that. 37:03.320 --> 37:08.040 So the second episode that we're discussing, or the second of hallway digressions episodes that 37:08.040 --> 37:14.440 we're talking about in this episode was called does Yahweh equal Allah? In which an alum, I believe 37:14.440 --> 37:17.720 asked whether- Their favorite alum. 37:17.720 --> 37:22.440 Yeah, their favorite alum, which isn't me. Like what? Anyways. 37:23.240 --> 37:28.680 I was like, I didn't ask this question. Yeah. I don't remember asking this question. I don't know 37:28.680 --> 37:35.000 what they're talking about. Me asking whether Allah and God are the same. Anyways, the question 37:35.000 --> 37:42.360 was basically is Allah equivalent to, I would say like the God of the Old Testament? And the 37:42.360 --> 37:48.760 reason they give is they were talking to some other person. They mentioned the roots of Islam 37:48.760 --> 37:55.400 somewhat being based in Ishmael in the Bible, who was not part of the covenant was kind of just, 37:55.400 --> 38:02.360 doesn't even come up after that story. Like he's just gone. So if Islam was kind of based out of 38:02.360 --> 38:08.280 Ishmael's view of God, Ishmael would have a more violent view of God. Like we always see the God 38:08.280 --> 38:14.200 of the Old Testament as the like mean God who destroys things and the God of the New Testament 38:14.200 --> 38:18.360 is the God of love, which we'll get to that point. Not yet. So that was the question. Do 38:19.000 --> 38:27.240 are Allah and God the same or I would say even are the God of Islam and the God of Christianity 38:27.240 --> 38:34.120 based on the same God? I think that's a better way of putting it. And instead of answering this 38:34.120 --> 38:41.720 question, these three decide to answer a different question of whether the God of Christianity is the 38:41.720 --> 38:48.200 same as the God of Islam as described in both of those religions, which obviously they are not. 38:48.200 --> 38:53.000 Like, and that's all they argue in this episode. All they argue is like, well, Christianity says 38:53.000 --> 38:57.640 God is this and Islam says God is this. So they can't be the same. See how they contradict each 38:57.640 --> 39:02.760 other. That wasn't the question. And I mean, you can see they first start off by being dismissive 39:02.760 --> 39:08.760 and calling this whole idea of Ishmael being a part of Islam as being a fairy tale, like without 39:08.760 --> 39:14.360 even really knowing, like Dee was questioning it and he was still okay with saying like, why are we 39:14.360 --> 39:21.160 basing this on like a fairy tale? Even so, even if we were to say like, yeah, that was wrong. 39:21.160 --> 39:30.120 Like, I'm not super sure. I'm not a Islam expert. But if hypothetically, let's say he's right, 39:30.120 --> 39:35.160 Ishmael is not part of the Islamic faith. Like he has nothing to do with the Islamic faith. 39:35.160 --> 39:43.000 Why not just answer the hypothetical? Why dismiss that whole part of the question and not try to 39:43.000 --> 39:48.520 answer it? It's like they're just not willing to answer it based on the information given because 39:48.520 --> 39:53.160 they know it's right. They know that like, oh, that's wrong to base on. So it's not even worth 39:53.160 --> 39:58.600 us answering that if it was. I've always come from a viewpoint of like, let's answer all the questions, 39:58.600 --> 40:03.480 even if like one of them maybe like even if there's assumptions for from the question, 40:03.480 --> 40:08.680 let's answer it still. Let's try to answer it to the best of our ability. So like even if Ishmael 40:08.680 --> 40:14.520 is a part of it, they could give their explanation as to why God wouldn't be. That's just me. But 40:14.520 --> 40:21.240 they seem they I say it's really Nick is the one that is very dismissive of the question because 40:21.240 --> 40:25.640 he thinks they are not knowledgeable about the question they are asking. And it's like, 40:25.640 --> 40:29.320 why do you need to have all of the knowledge before you ask a question? 40:29.320 --> 40:36.440 I don't like to nitpick, but Nick was being really like, I don't know, dismissive of Islam. And like, 40:36.440 --> 40:41.160 I don't know, it just felt like he was being really oppressive with his knowledge he had in his head. 40:41.160 --> 40:47.160 But he said that Ishmael isn't considered a prophet in Islam, which isn't true. Ishmael is 40:47.160 --> 40:52.280 considered a prophet. And it took me three seconds to Google that. And like, so that was kind of 40:52.280 --> 40:56.520 annoying to me. It was like he was, you know, just really beating down on Islam and he couldn't even 40:56.520 --> 41:03.320 like, say it correctly. It's kind of annoying. I do slightly want to get into what Nick was 41:04.200 --> 41:09.960 frustrated about. One of the things he seems to be frustrated about is people saying that the God 41:09.960 --> 41:14.120 of the Old Testament seems different than the God of the New Testament. Like the God of the Old 41:14.120 --> 41:18.360 Testament is mean and the God of the New Testament is all lovey-dovey and whatnot. And he has an 41:18.360 --> 41:23.000 issue with that. And I understand that being, it seems like he's a systematic theologian, 41:23.000 --> 41:28.600 or wants to be a systematic theologian. So he wants, for those that don't know, systematic theology 41:28.600 --> 41:34.280 is a type of theology that wants to tie the entire Bible together. So it's a type of theology where 41:34.280 --> 41:39.080 like, there's other theologies that look at specific parts of the Bible and just focus on 41:39.080 --> 41:44.360 those and just the context within those. Systematic theology tries to take in everything from the 41:44.360 --> 41:50.840 entire Bible to make a discernment for a theological claim. And so since he is more systematic, 41:50.840 --> 41:57.720 and I believe one of our textbooks was called systematic theology. So I understand being 41:57.720 --> 42:02.680 systematic that that can be frustrating because that's actually something that happened in church 42:02.680 --> 42:08.440 history was a belief that was deemed heretical in church history, where it was this idea that like, 42:08.440 --> 42:13.240 the God of the Old Testament is different than the God of the New Testament. So they threw out the 42:13.240 --> 42:18.200 Old Testament and only lived based on the New Testament. Oh, really? Yeah, that was like a whole 42:18.200 --> 42:22.360 thing. They deemed that whole, they gave it a name. I don't think it was Manichaeism, 42:23.080 --> 42:28.520 but they gave it a name and were like, this is Heresy and it was deemed heretical. And so it 42:28.520 --> 42:35.320 wasn't a part of the faith that we see today. Huh, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, that was a whole 42:35.320 --> 42:43.480 thing that happened in church history. And so it's funny that it's still an idea that gets brought 42:43.480 --> 42:48.040 up, even though it was rebuked and like thrown out, it's still a belief that people have and 42:48.040 --> 42:53.160 there's a reason for that. But- Yes, there is a reason for that. 42:54.040 --> 43:01.400 I think it's funny because Nick's defense was that like, yeah, like the God of the Old Testament 43:01.400 --> 43:09.080 seems mean, but he was also mean in the New Testament. This argument from the Old Testament 43:09.080 --> 43:16.520 just drives me crazy because, you know, God's a mean God in the Old Testament and then the New 43:16.520 --> 43:24.360 Testament also, and then he's loving, right? So this is a very narrow view of the scriptures, 43:24.360 --> 43:30.840 like read the whole Bible for goodness sake, like read, first of all, you think God is a God of love 43:30.840 --> 43:37.400 in the Old and the New Testament. Look to see what he does to Jesus on the cross. For goodness sake, 43:37.400 --> 43:43.160 what is Jesus? Jesus goes through hell on the cross. So you want to say that God is a God of love in 43:43.160 --> 43:49.000 the New Testament. Now you may say, yeah, but that was for us. Also, how many times does Jesus talk 43:49.000 --> 43:57.160 about hell in the gospels? So, you know, there's, there's definitely, right, there are punishments 43:57.160 --> 44:04.680 for people who have sinned and there is vengeance, you know, in fact, right, one of the often quoted 44:04.680 --> 44:10.520 verses, right, is from Romans, right? Vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will rebuke. So. 44:12.040 --> 44:18.360 Like this whole argument is like, God was still violent and like vengeance and like, 44:18.360 --> 44:23.240 do you see what he did to Jesus and all this different stuff, which is just funny to think 44:23.240 --> 44:30.200 about. It's like, okay, so you're still seeing God as this like vengeful God out to punish people. 44:30.200 --> 44:37.400 Why do you want to serve that God? Like, I don't, I like the God of love better, but he would say 44:37.400 --> 44:41.800 that's picking and choosing. I get it. He's trying to take the whole Bible in and it makes sense if 44:41.800 --> 44:48.440 he believes that God is vengeful, that is given in the Bible. And here's the thing, I love that, 44:48.440 --> 44:55.160 like Luke pipes in saying that there's a lot of stuff that God does in the New Testament that 44:55.160 --> 44:59.240 seems unloving. Like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the Old Testament that seems like God was 44:59.240 --> 45:03.960 unloving, but he also seems unloving in the New Testament. And then Nick goes on to say, 45:03.960 --> 45:08.200 and that's a necessity of love. Like you need that as part of love. 45:08.200 --> 45:18.440 And quote unquote, unloving stuff in the New Testament, if we're honest with it. And so, yeah, 45:18.440 --> 45:23.880 I agree with that. And so, go on. I was just going to say, which is a necessity. I mean, 45:24.680 --> 45:36.920 to love means that God is also in this holiness, also means he deals with sin, right? I am glad. 45:36.920 --> 45:40.760 God's love in my life is that he doesn't let me get away with stuff. 45:40.760 --> 45:46.520 And I was like, how can being unloving be a necessity of loving? Like, did you hear that 45:46.520 --> 45:48.200 part of the episode? Yeah. 45:50.200 --> 45:55.880 You're saying it's necessity for love is those unloving things. I guess that's the tough love 45:55.880 --> 46:01.720 movement that we went through. Yeah, I didn't know what to like, do with that. 46:01.720 --> 46:07.640 There's nothing to do with that. Yeah. I was like, I didn't know, I didn't have a response 46:07.640 --> 46:14.040 to it. I didn't even really write any notes down about it. Cause I was like, what? What just 46:14.040 --> 46:19.240 happened? Yeah. It doesn't really make sense. You know, I don't think love is having eternal 46:19.240 --> 46:24.200 punishment for finite actions. That's just, that's just, I don't think that's justice. Justice, 46:24.200 --> 46:28.280 I think is giving someone what they deserve, right? Like we always think of justice as like 46:28.280 --> 46:32.280 punishment, right? But justice can be positive too. Like if someone's deserving of praise, 46:32.280 --> 46:36.680 it's justice to give them that praise. It's just giving someone something they deserve. 46:36.680 --> 46:43.000 How can eternal punishment be a deserving punishment for someone who committed finite actions? 46:43.560 --> 46:46.680 Yeah. Finite punishment would be justice. 46:46.680 --> 46:50.200 I'm tempted to follow this thread, but I know it's going to take like two hours if I do. 46:50.760 --> 46:54.360 Yeah, this is a topic we could go on for a while. 46:54.360 --> 46:58.120 Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm just going to leave it there. Cause I was like ranting in the 46:58.120 --> 47:02.200 car the other day about a similar topic. Justice. Yeah, we should have it. That's 47:02.200 --> 47:06.440 what we should. Yeah. We should do an episode on like justice or something. That could be interesting. 47:06.440 --> 47:11.640 I've got some good stuff for justice, but yeah. So, I mean, even when I was a Christian, 47:11.640 --> 47:17.240 I like didn't really believe in the church's belief in hell. Like I was still able to be a Christian 47:17.240 --> 47:21.880 without hell being a part of it. And they probably wouldn't think I was a Christian 47:21.880 --> 47:27.080 since they hate progressive Christianity. And that is part of the progressive Christianity movement, 47:27.080 --> 47:31.880 not all like sex of it, but there's a lot of Christians out there that don't believe in 47:32.440 --> 47:36.600 eternal damnation. And I don't think you would know it. And you know, they probably seem to be 47:36.600 --> 47:40.840 more loving people. At least they were to me. The people that believe that stuff, like professors 47:40.840 --> 47:45.480 and whatnot. I think it was funny. One of my professors that I had a one-on-one class with, 47:45.480 --> 47:50.920 which was really cool to have. He literally just brought it up in one of our sessions, I guess. 47:50.920 --> 47:54.440 I don't know if I even want to call him class. We didn't even meet in the classroom. We met in like 47:54.440 --> 48:01.480 a coffee shop basically, had coffee and did Greek. But he brought up hell and how he came to his 48:02.280 --> 48:07.880 idea of hell. And I was like, huh, and that's what got me started on studying more about hell 48:07.880 --> 48:15.000 and the origins of that idea of hell, which I wrote a paper on. We should attach it to this episode. 48:15.800 --> 48:20.520 We can. I think that'd be cool. We should start attaching so I'll write papers. That'd be funny. 48:20.520 --> 48:27.480 Anyways, so there's that whole thing where they're talking about trying to rectify this difference in 48:27.480 --> 48:33.000 gods between the Old Testament and the New. I think that's all I really want to say about 48:33.000 --> 48:38.440 their discussion. It doesn't get any better than those points. I think I just want to get into, 48:38.440 --> 48:47.000 if I was like a progressive Christian standpoint on this idea of Allah and Yahweh, would that be 48:47.000 --> 48:53.560 fun? Would you like to do that? Cool. So to give a different perspective on this question, I would 48:53.560 --> 49:02.360 probably say that the gods of both Islam and Christianity are based on the same being. That's 49:02.360 --> 49:08.520 not saying that the Christian view of God and the Islamic view of God are the same. It's not saying 49:08.520 --> 49:15.720 that. It's saying that their beliefs stemmed from the same idea of this being of God. And why would 49:15.720 --> 49:23.480 I say that? Because the Old Testament is not part of Islam's holy texts or anything, but the Quran 49:23.480 --> 49:31.000 does refer to a lot of Old Testament characters and stories. They're pulling from the Old Testament 49:31.000 --> 49:37.240 as part of their religion. They're pulling stories of the god of the Old Testament as portraying, 49:37.240 --> 49:43.480 as speaking to the god of Islam, as speaking to Allah. And that's why I would say it's not a bad 49:43.480 --> 49:51.400 thing to say that both of these gods are based on the same idea. They're just different interpretations. 49:51.400 --> 50:00.760 I agree with you. I think I want to step into the host shoes a little bit. And because, so some 50:00.760 --> 50:07.240 context is that I took a, in college, I took a Who Wrote the Bible class, which in retrospect now, 50:07.240 --> 50:15.480 I am very happy I took that class. But taking that class as like a budding conservative Christian, 50:15.480 --> 50:22.520 or as someone budding from leaving conservative Christianity, it was a difficult class to take 50:22.520 --> 50:28.600 because it was purely viewing the Bible through a linguistic and storytelling perspective and 50:28.600 --> 50:35.480 nothing about it being a holy text or anything like that. Oh, you mean like a scientific approach? 50:35.480 --> 50:41.240 Yeah. And my professor was amazing. I wouldn't have said that at the time. Some other friends 50:41.240 --> 50:46.200 I took the class with dropped it by like the fourth week, but I trucked on through and I'm really 50:46.200 --> 50:53.800 happy that I did. But it was surprising to me to learn a lot more of the cultural history of how 50:53.800 --> 51:01.080 the, like not the fairy tale kind of storytelling that the church gives you about the New, or the 51:01.080 --> 51:05.800 Old Testament, but like the nitty gritty of like, there was a couple different authors, this is how 51:05.800 --> 51:12.520 they wrote differently. They, like a lot of the stories can be found in like other Assyrian texts, 51:12.520 --> 51:19.240 like the Epic of Gilgamesh's creation story, weirdly similar. Like all of this stuff grew in 51:19.240 --> 51:25.560 the same kind of area and it was born out of all this kind of stuff. And like, it's, it's okay to 51:25.560 --> 51:31.160 say that, like what you were saying is like, it's fine that that happened, like, but I think that 51:31.160 --> 51:37.640 they can't give that ground up because it starts to get more into the aspect of they have to start 51:37.640 --> 51:46.040 taking, what's the literal interpretation called? The authenticity and where everything was 51:46.040 --> 51:53.480 inerrant, where the authenticity and inerrancy of the Bible has to be questioned. And I don't think 51:53.480 --> 51:59.400 that they like those questions because it, like, it's, it goes against normal tradition of how the 51:59.400 --> 52:04.440 Bible is seen in Christianity. And I think that that would be kind of the pushback they would give 52:04.440 --> 52:10.200 of like, it can't be that the gods were born in the same place because ours is true and we can't 52:10.200 --> 52:15.640 give grounds to saying that the other religions are quote unquote true as well. Yeah, there's a lot of 52:15.640 --> 52:22.200 that makes sense at all. Looking at like, did you know that people study literature and 52:22.200 --> 52:27.240 linguistics and can tell if something is written by the same person or not? It's crazy. But yeah, 52:27.240 --> 52:33.240 looking into that stuff about the Bible, who wrote it and also seeing that like, like through 52:33.240 --> 52:38.200 study and whatnot, you can tell some of the earlier books were written by polytheists. 52:39.240 --> 52:45.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Another thing, if you're like, if you're like more like fundamentalist kind 52:45.560 --> 52:53.960 of view of the Bible, I would very much implore you to like, read the flood story, like, because 52:53.960 --> 52:58.920 I was a story that I hadn't ever like, I'd heard it and like had people like read it to me. But 52:58.920 --> 53:05.080 like, go into your Bible and just like read the story of the flood and just like, notice how much 53:05.080 --> 53:10.200 it repeats itself. I think that was the big eye opener thing for me in that class was like, we had 53:10.200 --> 53:16.440 to sit down and like, read the Bible. Like, it wasn't just like a Lakewood, we did like the 53:17.320 --> 53:21.080 daily Bible reading and had to like, write a little journal thing and like, nobody was really 53:21.080 --> 53:25.720 reading the verses, they were just kind of summarizing kind of thing. Like, I like, I sat 53:25.720 --> 53:31.320 down and like, was writing papers about this stuff. So I was reading the passages and like, 53:31.320 --> 53:36.840 it surprised me how much the flood story was like, so obviously written by more than one person, 53:36.840 --> 53:41.800 it was like clobbered together over the years, like many years. But like, stuff like that where 53:41.800 --> 53:46.200 you actually like, read and realize like, the Bible repeats itself a lot and there's a reason 53:46.200 --> 53:48.520 for that was very eye opening to me. 53:48.520 --> 53:52.760 Yeah, you ever read first and second Kings and first and second Chronicles? 53:53.880 --> 53:55.960 I have now, yes, I can say that now. 53:57.960 --> 54:05.160 I had a whole portion of one of my Old Testament classes where we compared the two together to 54:05.160 --> 54:09.640 see like, what was the same, what was different and all this different stuff. It was pretty fun. 54:09.640 --> 54:17.080 Each student had to present on some story that was given in both and see how it differed. 54:18.120 --> 54:24.440 I think one of our fun exercises was we, he told us to take four different colored highlighters 54:24.440 --> 54:30.680 and like, photocopy our Bibles that we were reading from and then like, highlight the 54:30.680 --> 54:35.480 different passages of what author we think wrote, what passages in like Genesis and then one of the 54:35.480 --> 54:40.440 classes he went through and presented of like, what the research and like, literary experts were 54:40.440 --> 54:44.920 saying at the time and like, so he had his own highlighted and we got to see like, how close we 54:44.920 --> 54:49.720 were. That was difficult because I didn't believe that it was written by four different authors at 54:49.720 --> 54:53.800 the time, but that was a pretty cool exercise. Now looking back on it. 54:53.800 --> 55:01.480 Yeah, but you know, education is of the devil. It leads kids away from Christ. So probably bad 55:01.480 --> 55:07.480 that you had formal education. Yeah, my advice before going to college was 55:07.480 --> 55:12.360 don't get led astray. Yeah, be careful. Don't get led astray. 55:12.360 --> 55:14.920 Yep. But I feel like I'm a better person because of it. 55:14.920 --> 55:22.120 Me too. I have no complaints about my education. The only complaint I have is that I'm not 55:22.120 --> 55:28.360 educated. The only complaint I have is more about just careers in the workforce and capitalism. 55:28.360 --> 55:33.400 Yeah, those are all my complaints. I don't, I didn't find any of my formal education related 55:33.400 --> 55:38.360 to my career helpful. All of the stuff I found helpful in my life has been like, 55:38.360 --> 55:46.120 personal development from gen ed classes and like, I loved my history classes and I took a class that 55:46.120 --> 55:52.920 was like the history of the mafia. That was a great class. But like a lot of stuff in my life got 55:52.920 --> 55:57.160 formed from the classes that weren't mandatory for me to take. I just picked them because they 55:57.160 --> 56:02.840 sounded interesting. And also I did have to admit I dropped out after two years from my computer 56:02.840 --> 56:07.720 science because I wasn't finding it very useful. But that's beside the point. I think formal 56:07.720 --> 56:12.920 education is very useful. Maybe not so much in the workforce and careers and all that stuff, 56:12.920 --> 56:18.200 but I think it's nice to have an ability to be free thinking and like talking to actual, 56:18.200 --> 56:22.760 like a lot of my professors were actual experts in the subjects they were talking about. And I 56:22.760 --> 56:29.880 think that was really nice to learn from in that time of my life. Yeah. So to conclude this 56:29.880 --> 56:35.160 discussion on this episode, Muslims and Christians might be worshiping the same God. Who knows? 56:36.040 --> 56:42.360 It's just, I just want to say that people can look at the same thing and come away with two 56:42.360 --> 56:47.400 completely different interpretations of that thing. Those interpretations may be different, 56:47.400 --> 56:53.400 but they were still looking at the same thing. That's all. If you want to look more into this 56:53.400 --> 56:59.880 kind of concept of like possibly everyone worshiping the same God or not, I'm sure there's 56:59.880 --> 57:05.640 tons of books about it. The one I connected the most with was Barbara Brown Taylor's Always a 57:05.640 --> 57:14.440 Guest, Speaking of Faith Far From Home. She was teaching a religion 101 class when she wrote this 57:14.440 --> 57:20.120 book and was talking about her experiences of like visiting other religious institutions and 57:20.120 --> 57:26.520 like being invited to practice other faiths for a moment and finding the beauty and that people 57:26.520 --> 57:33.400 are worshiping their own interpretations of possibly the same creator God figure. And I 57:33.400 --> 57:39.480 think it was really beautiful to read the way she described the respectfulness that she had of other 57:39.480 --> 57:46.120 religions that weren't her own. I believe she's more universalist than the host are, but I don't 57:46.120 --> 57:50.040 think that should matter. I'm just bringing it up because I thought it was a really cool view of 57:50.040 --> 57:55.240 like someone who's open and accepting of other faiths and religions of how they view religions 57:55.240 --> 58:03.240 instead of attacking and being more close-minded about other practitioners. Yeah. Read every 58:03.240 --> 58:11.240 thing by Barbara Brown Taylor. She's amazing. Also, read everything from Nadia Bolzweber. 58:11.240 --> 58:13.800 Read those two. Oh, that's so true. 58:14.440 --> 58:19.240 Read those two people. Read their books. See what you think. Don't try, if you're going to read 58:19.240 --> 58:26.520 them, don't go into it just trying to argue with the ideas in there. Just read them and think about 58:26.520 --> 58:33.560 them. Don't just get defensive and so like protective of your beliefs right now. Like why do 58:33.560 --> 58:41.880 you have to just constantly defend your so-called beliefs? Growth requires change. If you want to 58:41.880 --> 58:47.800 grow, your beliefs are going to change or else you're going to be stagnant. Believing the same 58:47.800 --> 58:54.760 things is the same thing as being stagnant. Yeah. I think that about sums it up. Yeah. Cool. 58:54.760 --> 59:00.120 You got anything else? I don't think so. Stagnant, that's such a fun word. 59:00.120 --> 59:08.120 Yeah. I feel like stagnant was used a lot with like our growth in Christ and faith and whatnot. 59:08.120 --> 59:10.040 Like I feel like that- Yeah, not be lukewarm too. 59:10.040 --> 59:15.800 Yeah, I feel like that word was used a lot to say like don't just sit on like grow in Christ. 59:15.800 --> 59:20.360 Like learn new things about Christ, but don't learn new things about anything else. 59:20.360 --> 59:25.800 You can learn new things about everything. Just take in other people's perspectives. 59:25.800 --> 59:30.440 Their perspectives aren't the thing that's like going to change you. It's you being able to 59:31.000 --> 59:37.240 think critically. Yeah. Like they always say like, I always say they and I always feel like it's an 59:37.240 --> 59:41.640 us versus them thing, but I'm trying not to like be specific with like certain, like I'm trying 59:41.640 --> 59:46.280 not to name drop like specific pastor quotes that I still remember and stuff. So I just use like a 59:46.280 --> 59:51.080 general day concept. I'm not trying to be tribalistic. I just, I feel like I get self-conscious 59:51.080 --> 59:55.080 about that sometimes because I really try not to be tribalistic, but like I'm just trying to be 59:55.080 --> 59:59.960 vague enough. I like not name dropping anyone who's not like directly involved, but like a 59:59.960 --> 01:00:04.280 lot of pastors will always say, you know, don't believe everything you hear, like be critical 01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:10.520 during sermons. And then like you try to take those skills outside of like direct, like evangelical 01:00:10.520 --> 01:00:17.480 approved content. And it's like, no, don't do that. Like stay in the lane, like learn more about what 01:00:17.480 --> 01:00:23.960 we think is true, but don't like go try to base us against anything else. Yeah. Learn more about 01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:29.160 what we say. It's okay to believe, learn more about that. Don't learn anything about stuff that we say 01:00:29.160 --> 01:00:34.840 is not okay to believe. Yeah. It's a problem. It's okay to be inquisitive. It's okay to ask 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:41.160 questions. It's okay to, this is going to be controversial in a conservative world. It's okay 01:00:41.160 --> 01:00:50.760 to doubt. Doubt is fine. And it makes sense. If they make you feel small for having doubts, 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:56.440 that's called manipulation. Yeah. Having doubts is a good thing because it means you can learn 01:00:56.440 --> 01:01:02.120 and grow. It gives you something to look into. Just look in a variety of areas. Don't look in 01:01:02.120 --> 01:01:10.440 the same spot. There's some amazing experts that aren't in the Christian sphere that are amazing 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:16.600 and helpful and can just have explained so many things in such clear terms. And like, like it's 01:01:16.600 --> 01:01:21.800 not, I feel like it's just been an always ingrained that like the universal truth is that Christianity 01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:27.640 is right. And like, it's so, I feel like it's like such a hard topic to step away from, but once you 01:01:27.640 --> 01:01:32.680 do, I just, it's like such a, like a breath of fresh air kind of thing where it's like, oh, other 01:01:32.680 --> 01:01:40.520 things can exist in this sphere and it's okay. Like it's fine. And with that, thanks for listening. 01:01:41.320 --> 01:01:48.360 If you have any ideas, requests or anything of the sort, again, email us at hey, 01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:58.600 H-E-Y at hallwaytransgressions.com. Yeah. Bye. Love you. Love you. Hail Satan. I stole that from 01:01:58.600 --> 01:02:05.480 another podcast. We can't use that. No, you're not. That's, I stole it though. That wasn't original. 01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:09.480 It's at the end of, yeah, there's a podcast I listen to where they say that at the end 01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:19.160 of every episode. Hail Satan.