Welcome to hallway transgressions. I'm Chris. I'm Ryan
We are two private school alumni and this podcast serves to examine the worldviews of Christian pastors and teachers through a postmodern lens
Trigger warning this episode discusses topics that may be controversial offensive or triggering to nature to some individuals
Listen at your own risk. Hey Ryan, what's your bright spot? Oh, there's just so many to choose from
I'm gonna have to go with I've been reading a lot of bleach because who has time to watch bleach
I'm gonna read it
And I got through one of the major arcs today
So now it's like there's a whole new story to unfold. I love it. I like going into a new mark
It's like it it took so long just to get to the end of like this whole sequence of battles that went on
It was like a hundred chapters of just like
This just like the the last part of the arc like it was all building up and then just took forever to get through the
So many different battles between different people but we made it through
I'm sure stuff will come back to haunt us later in this series
That'll never happen. How far are you?
Like halfway so
So spoiler alert for those who are reading or watching bleach
I got to the part where
Aizen was taking over Kurokara in the Soul Society
and
Ichigo learned the final getsuga
And so they they were able to get Aizen and now we're starting with like a year has passed and he has no
Shinigami powers anymore
Whatever will happen. He must just go on to living a normal life. That's got to be it
That's why there's 300 more chapters left
300 chapters of a normal life
That was for me not for the listeners. It was just boring. Yeah, so that's where I'm at. That's pretty good. Very cool
How about you? What's your bright spot?
My bright spot is we got an email from a listener the other day and it was very nice and very encouraging
it was from someone that had grown up in a
Fundamentalist ish very strict household and it was really nice to hear that
We've been able to reach out it to at least some people and they've been finding
Comfort and help through our episodes because what we're here for and now I'm gonna shamelessly plug if you do want to reach out
To us we have an email. Hey at hallway transgressions.com and feel free to
Email almost anything you want and we'd be happy to hear from any listeners out there
I know there's at least 10 of them and I appreciate everyone
so the rest of this episode is going to be an interview and talk we had with a former classmate and
old friend
Becca from Lakewood. I really enjoyed our conversation. I thought we had a lot of good talks
Beforehand and we went through an episode as well a spoiler alert on that. It wasn't fun
but yeah, I think talking to Becca got me thinking a little bit more about how a
lot of the teaching and Lakewood was always to
Don't you have like an approved list of people to listen to and like seeking sources outside of that wasn't very kosher
I think like this was like not a big realization
But it was just something I was like, you know
I go through your head and you're just thinking things and then spirals down
It's like how people go on YouTube, but just in your brain. I got two
memories
growing up of
people always saying like
Be careful what you expose yourself to be careful what you are taking in like how based on what you are
Feeding your mind it will like corrupt you of bad type of thing and I got that a lot
I got
When I was growing up, I had books thrown away while I was at school
very limited on what I was able to watch based on this idea of
You got to be careful what you are bringing in to your mind because it will affect you and in that connotation
negatively and
Really? I just started thinking about that and thinking like that just seems to be
almost like
Obvocating ignorance like don't read these types of books. Don't listen to these people don't watch these people
so that you won't corrupt yourself and in theory like I
Understand it like I get it
But I've more come to a I'm gonna take in as much as I can so that I have a more well-rounded
idea of things and not just a one-sided view of things, but yeah, it's almost like
The church at least the one that I grew up in was saying be ignorant
Don't expose yourself to things that might lead you astray lead you away from God and look at that
They were kind of right
It almost does more damage though in a way. I know I was thinking about focus on the family
Actually last night I like way too late, which is never a good thing
But I was thinking about how focus on the family is an organization that tries to teach parents how to raise
themselves almost like you're trying to make a carbon copy perfect Christian out of another human being that you're responsible for and they sell a
lot of books and tools and media they're a media powerhouse to create like a
culture of
I mean a fundamentalist Christians really but a culture where parents are have strict control over what's their children consume and
The media that they watch in the media that they read and there's also books for the parents on how to do things
But I was looking at a book the other the other night
That was what you do when your child starts to question
The faith and I thought it was really interesting that they create a pipeline of like you read all the early parenting books
And then you read the books about what to do
You know through elementary school and middle school and like how to raise your kid in a perfect Christian household
And then when that doesn't work because you're you know
Your kid is an independent human that has their own thoughts and feelings and attitudes about the world when that doesn't work
Then you can buy this other book that tells you what to do when everything falls apart around you
And it just kind of made me laugh that it was just like yeah
You do all this stuff that they tell you to do and then it doesn't work
And then they sell you books to do when it doesn't work
And it's almost like maybe you should just like talk about what's going on with your kid
It almost feels like that a lot of the parents need to do the deconstructing work so that their kids don't have to do it
later really
Yeah, you know what since we won't have kids will be the better parents to other people's kids
Yeah, yeah, I don't tell those parents what to do. Let me lecture all these other parents and what yeah
We have no ground for telling parents what to do
Yeah, arguably. I don't think focus on the family has any ground to do it either, but whatever
They just they just have money in mind at least we have the child's well-being in mind
Yeah, I'm just trying to help a little bit. Hopefully just a tad I just don't want other people to go through the experience
We had to do if they don't have to you know hey remember that movie that
Made the government seem like the bad guy for trying to help children get the education that everyone has a right to no
You don't remember that movie it had to do with oh you do
We the people God's not dead
The
Parents are like we want to be able to homeschool our kids and teach them whatever the fuck we want
And the government's like no we want your child to be educated
And then they take the whole thing like it's the parents right to indoctrinate their child. However. They want that's right
Yeah, yeah
Well if we should do a miniseries on that and if the listeners want that they should reach out to us all the God's
Not dead movies all of them will go through each one
And with that enjoy the episode
Please enjoy the episode we had with Becca
Today we have with us a very special guest from
Former Lakewood student Becca. Hello
Welcome Becca. So you to get started. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
How you ended up at Lakewood how I ended up at Lakewood my parents put me there
Did you go all 12 years?
all the sixth grade
Because my parents didn't like the sixth grade teachers at the time. So they sent me to public school for one year
Whoa, I did that too
My sixth grade year was wild though. I got a yahoo account without my mom knowing she found an email where I cussed to a friend
Oh, no
All because my computer froze when I was trying to exit out of yahoo when she got home from work
So shout out to dial up internet for getting me in trouble
What a snitch
classic dial-up, right?
Um, but yeah, so went there all but sixth grade and pre-kid and go to pre-k because I don't know
I just did um, but graduated 2014. So I was a year ahead of you guys
Um ryan and I were pretty good friends in high school
I was one of the friends he was talking about in the previous episode when he said we all abandoned him
Yeah, I abandoned him. Yep. Just had to graduate. You could have just got held back
No, thanks one more year there. No
I was out of there
But yeah, then I went to trine though. I was at trine for three years graduated with a degree in psychology and criminal justice
Um had every intention after I was doing that to like I was gonna get my masters in forensic psychology
I was gonna go to law school. I had all these like lofty dreams for myself
Um, and then I thought that god was calling me into ministry. Whatever you want to take that as
Um, so I ended up it was so funny too
Like I had a really cool internship lined up my senior year of college
I was going to intern with one of our professors who was a forensic psychologist and I canceled it to
Intern at county line and I hate myself for that like it was a really cool opportunity and I didn't do it
Wow, yeah
Um, but yeah
So then I interned at county line my senior year of college and then when I graduated they offered me a job
It was part-time. So I stayed I was actually there. Oh, I've ryan. I totally forgot. We worked at the movie theater together
I forget who I worked with at the movie theater. There were too many liquid people there
I was sick of it by the time I left. I yeah, I think all I remember is
I totally forgot you worked there
Yeah
Yeah, you because you started like before I did and then I got a job there
But so I I was at ncg for a long time. I was there
I don't even know but I because I stayed part-time at the church and then part-time as a manager there
But then eventually they made my job full time. And so I started out as their preteen coordinator was my official title
So I was in charge of their fifth and sixth grade ministry
And then they realized I should not be leading a ministry and I have much better administrative skills
So I became their student ministries coordinator
So I was just the basically the assistant to the junior high and high school pastors, which I was basically already doing
So but yeah, so stayed there for like, I don't know three or four years. I can't remember exactly how long I was there
But I don't know. Yeah
Ryan I feel like you and I just crossed some paths in so many ways because like we had ncg we had school
And then we had county line. Yeah
there was just a thing at lakewood had its own little like
Like sphere like community almost where everyone went to the same places
Is everyone thought of doing the same thing so many people from lakewood went to county line so many people from lakewood worked at
Ncg it was just it was something
It's not a cult. They swear. It's not a cult. It's not a cult. Call it a hive mind and then it's not a cult
Uh, everyone's connected to the spirit
Just so you know, so they're all like it's not a hive mind the mind in that hive mind is just the holy spirit
Connecting everyone together just so you know, yeah, yeah
Um kind of thing there's oh yeah what i'm doing now
So, uh, I lost my train of thought because we started talking about a hive mind of a cult, uh, and the holy spirit stranger things
Yeah, clearly that's what's on my mind is stranger things. Uh,
Uh, I I was at county line for like three or four years got super burnt out super tired of ministry
Really just kind of hated what I was doing the students were like the only aspect of it that I liked because I felt like they needed me
Um, especially the lakewood kids that were there. I felt like needed me. Um, and then
Left there in 2020 mid pandemic. I left I think and went to allen county community corrections
Also known as home detention. Um, I was a dispatcher there for our home detention officers as well as I monitored people
That were on gps. So I stared it basically I stared at google maps all day and like points on a map
Um, and then now I am at the volunteer lawyer program
So my official title is volunteer coordinator and assistant executive director
So I do just a lot of different stuff for them, but i'm five weeks in and I love it. Yeah, that's me
So do you want to talk a little bit about your beliefs during your time at lakewood?
Oh
Let's get into it. I guess yeah, I mean pretty much whatever lakewood believed I believed I was super heavily
Entrenched I feel like um, I was going on mission trips. I was leading chapels
I was leading bible studies like I had I was your very stereotypical like high school christian kid
It's so funny too because I tell my friends that like I was probably the golden child up until
I left the church because like like working for the church anyways, because I was like, I don't know
I was always just that kid that was super strong in their beliefs and
I had my opinions and like I don't know. I believed everything they told me
I didn't really question it. I just knew that I was raised in faith and
That's what I was supposed to do and I think I just like got some sort of sense of satisfaction of like being a leader
In those spectrums and I think I think that's really more what like drew me to faith was like the leadership opportunities
Because I had people like giving me a lot of responsibilities
And I liked that people trusted me and were willing to like let me lead things
But I didn't really know what I was doing and I was kind of just like flying by the seat of my pants
And I was very good at memorization like i'm freakishly good at memorization
So I think faith at lakewood was easy for me because I just regurgitated whatever answer
I thought they expected from me. So these tests were easy for you, too
Oh so easy
Yeah, it was like it was you me and some other person that got 100 on his final. He like kept track of it
Yeah, and it wasn't because I actually like cared about what I was studying. I'm just really good at memorization
So like I would I you should see the stack of flashcards that I made when I was in college
Like also mr d's class did not compare to if anyone that ever listens to this went to trine
There's this psychology professor. Dr. blaze who his classes were the hardest classes i've ever taken in my life
And it was all just like pure memorization. So like even that class I did really well in because it's just straight memorization
Like I just you give me a line. I could have been an actor if I wasn't actually bad at acting because I can regurgitate whatever you
All right, i'm gonna pull up a list of fallacies. You're gonna tell me what they are
Okay
It's memorize and trash it
It's not memorize my memorization is not memorized and then keep it in like a computer bank in my brain it's
Memorize and okay i'm done with this move on
Okay, once you write it down on the test, it's gone
Oh for sure. Absolutely just disappeared
That's funny. I just I always remember everything that anyone ever tells me and it's it's a burden
Oh, poor chris has a wonderful memory
It's it's when I listen to podcasts like these terrible podcasts
And like I just remember everything anyone has ever said and you know, it weighs on me
A lot. I don't know. That's kind of amazing. I forget everything everyone tells me. So that's a blessing. It's really nice
I love being able to just take anything that anyone says and just you know, forget about it at will
I love it must be nice. It really is. It's the key to happiness for me
So becca how did the uh slave auction event make you feel oh my god
Did you write this question when I told you that i've been talking about it with people yep
Um
This it's so funny because this actually came up
So my oldest brother and I we just like have been texting back and forth a lot recently
So he's um atheist I believe I don't want to like assume what his beliefs are
But last time I talked to him and he like put a label on it
I think that's where he was but uh him and I were talking about just like every now and then i'll text him and just be
Like remember when like we did this like remember when like we did this and we were having a conversation
He just goes do you remember the junior senior slave auction and I said, oh my god
Yes, and it was just this realization that like I didn't even question that when I was in high school
I did not even think about how how horrific this was like it's so horrible that we did this
Which like for anyone listening that doesn't know what the junior senior slave auction was
basically it was one of the fundraising things that the junior and senior class would get to do and
Like I remember it just being like the biggest fundraising opportunity you had like if you did that fundraiser
You made you raked in so much money and
And literally it was the students from the classes that were raising the money would get auctioned off to people in the crowd
Who would literally we had an actual auctioneer like come in do the auction an auctionist office human beings
And we would have to like go and do whatever they wanted for like a day
And I was like, we are literally commercializing slavery like like what I still can't wrap my head around it
like
I don't know if it would have been worse if they had at least like named it something else if that would have made it
Any better? Oh, they did
They what did they start calling it?
the the servant auction
That is just as bad
Yeah
They still do it. They still do it. They renamed it. Yep. They renamed it again. Just kidding me
No, it's still the servant auction. They still do it. I just confirmed again recently to make sure
And oh, you know, they still do it
How can anyone get away with this like you you're literally?
Trivializing an entire people groups horrific struggle and using it to raise money for your junior senior banquet
Like what I
How does no one see a problem with this I
Don't I don't know what I do know is that they do the same thing with slavery in the bible
They just say that it's actually not slavery. It was being servants to pay off debt, which is not true
Indentured service. It was pretty horrific
Slavery is just bad. I don't know if you guys know this but
Slavery is not good. I didn't know wow. I'm glad you told me
I just don't understand too
Like why people are so set on just like skimming over it like slavery freaking happened
Why are we pretending and trying to put it in this like nice little box with a bow on it and be like yeah
Let's happen. But like it's okay now like no, it's not freaking okay
Like there's so much systemic racism
There's so many systemic problems because of slavery regardless of what you want to call it
Whether it's servant hood or slavery
It's freaking slavery and I feel like christians will just want to like wash their hands of everything and not take any accountability
For the fact that like christians were literally the ones like leading the slave trade
And we just want to wipe our hands of accountability and we change one word in a slave auction to a servant auction
And it makes it okay like no freaking doesn't uh, that makes me so mad that they still do it
I was hopeful that maybe they wouldn't but that makes me upset that they still do it
Yeah, it's really bad. It's awful. You have too high views of like what it sounds like
I'm just slightly hopeful that like maybe there's been some growth whatsoever, but apparently not
No, no growth. I listened to their podcast. No growth. That's fair. I listened to one episode and that was enough for me
Yeah, um, do you want to tell any more about your deconstructing story where you stand now
Great question
Well, no, it's just funny because I I was texting this is a conversation
I've just been like continuing with like so many different people because I don't know that's kind of how I started my
deconstruction journey when it really was just like having conversations with people because
It's so funny when I was in high school
I just like I remember going to of all places a fun concert and they have these shirts that said
It's all fun and gay till someone loses their rights and I was like 15 or 16 when I saw those shirts and I was like
Yeah, but then I'm like, I'm not supposed to think that it's like I'm not supposed to agree with that
But like yeah, like I do agree with that
And so just like I think my deconstruction journey whether I knew it or not like started when I was in high school
And I just like had all these questions inside of me that I just kind of like buried under the like
regurgitation of what I knew I was supposed to like answer stuff as
And so I think I've always had these thoughts in my head of like I do affirm the lgbtq community
And like I I don't know if I agree with everything that they're telling me in school and at church and
Especially my last year leading a group at Cal Polytechnic
Um, especially my last year leading a group at county line
Um, it was really hard for me to tell the kids what they wanted me to tell them while holding a very different
Belief in my own mind because I was starting to process through maybe I don't believe that
Maybe I don't agree with that
And you know, it was especially hard for me to wrap my brain around the fact that my boyfriend and I wanted to move in
Together and when I was working there, I thought I could I could probably lose my job if we moved in together
I was like that's kind of messed up
I shouldn't be able to lose my job just because my boyfriend and I want to move in together
Um, and so I think it was just a lot of questions and conversations
I was having with myself of like I don't I don't understand this. I don't get this and
This year like probably only a few months ago
I came to terms with the fact that I don't want to go to a physical church anymore
And I felt a lot of guilt about that for a long time and have only recently just been okay with I you know
I don't want to go back to a physical church building and I don't necessarily know what I believe and i'm okay with that
I don't have a name for what I believe. I don't know at all what I believe right now
I've kind of i'm kind of at the point where I know what I don't believe and what I don't agree with and i'm going
To work my way up from there. Yeah, just don't get too comfortable once you get set with some beliefs
They're going to change again. That's fine
And once you start they just get they just keep evolving it just never ends
It's exhausting. I just need like a base right now. I need a baseline. It's never gonna happen. Sorry
Yeah, the world isn't uh black and white. So
Once you lose that binary it gets
weird
It's so funny because I think like especially lgbtq rights like it's been the easiest thing for me to understand
Like even when I was identifying as christian, I it was still so easy for me to just be like yeah
I affirm that it like it just makes sense
and so just
like I it's so funny to me because I
Feel like i've been doing this for a long time of just getting to this point of what the heck do I believe?
Because i've had all these thoughts for such a long time and I just don't think i've ever had a space
Where I could voice them and it'd be normal
Uh, so I I think that was that was really hard too, especially working at the church of just having to like sit there
and listen to them say all these things and all these thoughts and opinions and
Not feeling like there was space for me to voice how I felt and just feeling kind of silenced
There was another girl that I worked with she was there at the same time
And she's the same age as me and we like really bonded over that
We would actually go to lunch every tuesday and just complain about how frustrated we were about just the politics of the place
we were working and um
I think that too that like started that was my first space where I could talk about these things
and so just that has gradually grown more and more and having space to question space to wonder about things and um,
I think has been pivotal for my deconstruction journey. It's still a journey. I'm still on it. I
I yeah, i've got a long way a long ways to go for sure
um, my poor boyfriend i'm just like
Viewing things at him. I made him listen to you guys's podcast as we were like driving in the car
And I was like, I just i'm reliving my high school trauma. It's fine
I gotta work through this. Okay, so it's just been it's been interesting to kind of just take the journey on my own. So
Yeah, thanks for sharing
Hey, no problem
I told you i'm an open book. I pretty much talk about anything. I think everyone that knows me knows that though
Good, we'll exploit that chris doesn't let's bust out the dear doug letters
No, no, no, no, no special episodes. No chris said he would never
I
Dear doug haunts me. I had one other question
Of if liquid how liquid harmed you but I think we got that dealt with so how didn't they?
Yeah
No, I will say like I there are aspects of liquid that I
Appreciate because I feel like I feel like I got some of my critical thinking from being there
Like I think as i've looked back and been like what the fuck are they teaching me?
Like I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but just having the that's what i'm looking for
I just I like having the afterthought to look back at what they were teaching me and actually questioning it
I think somehow that education tied into me being able to do that. I don't know but
Yeah, yeah, I will we're gonna talk later in this episode
But I have the same thoughts too as well. It was like
When you it gave me a framework of what?
Christians believe so when I looked back later, it was like oh, here's all the reasons that this doesn't work
Like it gave me a deeper understanding of Christianity and then when you look back with like a postmodern or other lens
You can be like, oh like once you leave Christianity, it's harder to
Believe in it like all the arguments make sense when you're inside Christianity
But when you step outside of it and look back you get in the same place of like
The lens they use on every other religion basically
Yeah, which is most of this upcoming episode that we're gonna talk about so
Neat super neat. Well, yeah, you got anything right?
Uh depression no
I'm gonna cut that somewhere. It's more like apathy
That's funny
well
We're glad to have you becca you've
I just want that I want that clip
You got anything right
Me too, man
Yeah, it doesn't feel good
It's fine. This is how we get our trauma out. We just
Oh, I laugh through all like uncomfortable topics
Like it's real bad. I can't have a serious conversation without giggling. I maybe blame liquid for that
Ah, that's how it harmed you
That's how it harmed me. I can't have a freaking serious conversation
I just stopped feeling things in like senior year. Well, that's probably the drugs right probably the best thing that ever happened
I think I just faked my way the whole time. Oh
No
For me, I guess it didn't feel as much like I was faking
But just kind of just going along with things just kind of riding it out
More of an observer. It felt like even though I was like on stages and stuff. I just felt like I was just
Watching everything happen. Yeah, you guys were both on worship team, weren't you?
I wasn't not there. I was I didn't get involved in worship until I was in college when I learned I could actually sing
Yay
Now I don't do anything with it. So me neither. I gave up music you can sing our intro you're gonna do our intro
Do you have an intro? No
Make it up right now
One of my one of my favorite youtubers her intro was literally her just like making sounds
It was just like she she did it every single episode like just saying it herself
That's funny
We just uh jump into it and then I just randomly cut the episode off when we're done and
Yep, we don't really have
A whole process really we got a small one and then we just talk
That's fine. And then chris gets to decide what stays in and what goes yeah, I have all the power
Exactly. It's your podcast
And yes, and you're all living in it. All right
Let's get this over with this the worst part
Yeah
that that episode was like I I listened to your entire episode on just how they handle just
really just the entire gender spectrum and sexuality and I just
It hurt to relive everything that they told us and it hurt to think about the people that were probably sitting in that room
Who were somewhere on that spectrum?
And having to hear people just tell them that they're sinners like that breaks my heart to think about that's why we
that's why we started the podcast for accountability to
the
people in charge but also to like reach out to
Hopefully any students or former students and like give them a safe place to like understand that not everyone thinks that way
Yeah, I had a former student that wanted to meet with me and she told me she was like, you know
I'm having some like homosexual thoughts and I think I gave her just the most like unexpected response because I was like
Okay, let's like talk about it. Like I was like how how have you like explored your sexuality?
Like do you think like are you attracted to women?
Like are you attracted to like literally just started peppering her with like all these questions of like let's talk about sexuality
Like I think completely threw her for a loop because it wasn't what she was expecting
But and i'm just like why can't those be the kind of conversations that you have with the student instead of being like
You're a horrible human being and like they're already in a place where they're gonna feel terrible
Because they're being told that who they are is wrong, which it's not and I think that was like also the first thing
I said to her I was like that's okay. I said, that's fine. That's normal
I said, it's normal have thoughts about other girls like that's totally fine
And just that was never something that anyone at lakewood would ever hear like it would
It would never be affirmed in any way shape or form not at all
All I did in my student ministry I was a part of was
combated toxic masculinity by painting my nails and have all these like high schoolers like asking me
Why are your nails painted? One kid literally was like, let me wipe those off. Like i'm gonna get some hand sanitizer
I'm gonna take that nail polish off of you. It's just like messed up
Yeah, I remember like sorry now i'm just thinking about like my experiences in student ministry like
Nope, that's what it's for. So go for it. I remember uh, we it was during the election
Everything was happening and we had um, I don't even remember what we were talking about that night
But everyone was so heated because the election was happening and we were like waiting for the results and all that
And so we got into our small group and there was one student that was just like going to the bathroom
There was one student that was just like going off about the election results or something like that
I don't know and I just straight up stood up and I was like, you know what guys I voted for biden
I was just like and I don't feel bad about it
And I don't feel like i'm a bad christian for voting for biden and I was like and you guys need to hear it
That more people can vote democrat and still be a christian like that's a thing that happens
It's and just like I think I spent my time in student ministry just like trying to be
The opposite side of the spectrum christian that I could possibly be so that these students don't just become these
cookie-cutter christians that they actually stop and maybe think about why why they're like saying these things why they're doing these things
But I don't know if I made any difference whatsoever, but I tried
I hope you did I would try to do the same thing. So it was in smaller ways
I always felt isolated during like worship times and whatnot when I was in the crowd like in the congregation because
They make it seem like you have to like raise your hands or like do something youth ministries more like let's jump around and dance
And end quotes have fun
And so I was the leader that just wouldn't sing just stood there and read the words that were on the screen during like the
The music portions of the ours were on sunday nights
But I would try to make it seem like okay that you don't feel like you
Have to sing or have to raise your hands to be a good christian
That's what like just looking back on everything like my time at lakewood my time at the church at the church
I felt a little bit more freedom to kind of believe a little bit differently
But I didn't feel like I could speak out about it. I didn't feel like I could
Even just like I didn't feel like I could post that like I went to a bar or anything on my social media because
I had students following me and that sort of thing and
Just like looking back on all of it
I just felt like they were trying so hard to shove me into a bot and like that is the last thing
Anyone should try to do to me because I will burn that box to the ground
That is just not the type of human being that I am and I think I struggled for a long time of wanting
I think eventually I wanted to fit in that box when I was at lakewood. I wanted everyone to see that box, but then
It got too small and I was like fuck this i'm out. I can't do this anymore. I don't agree with this
I don't believe this and I think especially with christianity
I don't think it has to be this cookie cutter thing of you have to believe these certain things to be a christian
Uh that there's a podcast I follow called the new evangelicals
And it's just been like opening my eyes a ton to just how different people see christianity and how different people practice their faith
And how it looks so different for every person?
And that was never a faith that was never a version of christianity that was presented to me that I could truly
You know see things differently and that was okay and that there was there's space for those beliefs because growing up
I was told if you agree with these things you're wrong
The bible says that it's wrong and you can't have a different interpretation of the bible because there is only one interpretation of the bible
And like I think that messed me up because I was like, how can how can there only be one interpretation?
like how can I I just was filled with all these questions because
They I don't know. They just are so hard pressed to be like check this box check this box and check this box
But christianity is not a checklist, but you gotta check all these boxes
I don't know. That's my soap box
Yeah, I think one of the last times before I quit being a volunteer at the student ministry was when I told the pastor
like it was me and the youth pastor in charge of a group of juniors and seniors for like small groups and
And he was always like wanting me to speak more and I ended up telling him
I was like
I just feel like I have to be quiet because my beliefs are just
So in contrast to a lot of the stuff here
And I just don't think you would appreciate my thoughts or their parents would appreciate my thoughts being told to them which led to
uh the youth pastor and his wife grilling me on my beliefs asking me what I believed in like
Arguing with me over these beliefs. I was like this wasn't the point of the conversation
Like I was saying like this probably isn't gonna work out the way it is
Like I don't feel safe to speak here like what are we gonna do about it?
But no, they just made it worse by arguing against the beliefs. I had no intention of bringing up
That's why I left
Well, and I I don't understand why they try to make faith so public like like
We have to know what you believe and we have to know what your views are and it's like jesus wouldn't be doing this
Jesus doesn't care at all what my view is on these specific things
Jesus just cares that like i'm a human being and he wants to have a conversation with me
He's not gonna sit there and grill me about my beliefs and how they're incorrect and tell me to fix it
Or i'm gonna have to leave like
you know
that sounds like
A certain set of people that was mentioned in the bible
Oh, I tell people all the time that we're living in the time of the fair
Yeah
the den of vipers
Like christian christian nationalists, especially our freaking pharisees and sadducees and i'm still over them
but I find them entertaining
I've actually
I've told people a couple of times that I was like when you read the when you're sitting here like spouting scripture at me
when you go back and you read the
Scripture like on jesus talking to the pharisees does it feel like he's talking to you because it should yeah
probably
No, they're always gonna put theirself in the the character of jesus
Because jesus was so aggressive
Or if you go to the gospel of thomas when he murdered that child
What a great book
I love hearing about child jesus murdering people. Should we talk about that?
But I want to put that on a future episode. I want to talk about the infancy gospel of thomas
Hey, that wasn't included in the council of leo de cs. However, you say it so
It's it's my canon now, so it's not a real scripture
Yeah
But the fact that it exists causes some questions
Yeah, like why how?
There you go. That's ryan. That's my one fact that I memorized that I kept the council of
The council of leo de cia or do you mean nicaea?
I don't know. There was a council of leo de cia though. Yeah, there was i'm pretty sure you mean council of nicaea
I forget I I kind of forgot church history even though that was like my entire college career
I have told people so many times too that like when I went to college
I didn't even I struggled in biology class because I wasn't taught evolution, but I was taught the council of leo de cia
Sick great great great facts. I learned guys. Yeah, and jeremiah 29 11 is taken out of context
That and oh there was another one that he always heard
I don't know
Yeah, what was another one of these shticks?
He never answered where the planets are around that's for sure
He also told us not to believe him and to do our own research but then gets angry when we don't believe him I my
This the thing that haunts me the most is the time we were learning about predestination
And arminianism like like free will and I just remember his whole presentation this stuck with me
This is probably also part of my deconstruction journey because I was so pissed off about it because he
Gave this whole presentation on predestination and all this proof and he before he like started teaching it
He was like i'm gonna present both sides and like give space for you to like determine and I was like, ah like cool
Like you're gonna let us determine for ourselves what's true and he gave this entire presentation on predestination
And the very end of it was one slide that gave the biblical support for free will just one
Slide in this like 15 point like 15 page powerpoint 14 other slides were dedicated to
Predestination and one slide was dedicated to free will and I was like, all right, so you're not slanted at all
Like cool and I just I feel like that's how it is with everything that liquid does
They're like we're gonna like let you determine and figure this out for yourself
But we're gonna heavily influence you in this one direction
Very specifically, but also if you choose the other side you're wrong, but we'll let you decide for yourself
Not even it's not even you're wrong. It's a you burn in hell like the stakes were so high for everything, right?
That in itself is so traumatizing as a child trying to like
People just became christians. They came forward raised their hands because they were just afraid of hell because
You're telling me i'm gonna burn in hell unless I say this one prayer. Okay, cool. I'll say the prayer like
Gosh I have so many problems with my upbringing you want my paper I wrote on hell
No
Chris read it
That's pretty good
It was basically that it doesn't exist
Yeah, I don't I don't know what I believe so don't ask me because I don't know do you still
Consider yourself a christian then
I don't know. I think i'm having a hard time like fully letting it go just because of like
How I was raised and how I don't know just how far into it I got because I also
Like i've seen I've seen christianity do good and i've seen people in faith like do
Really amazing things and I also feel like I have seen god work in like certain areas of my life
But I don't i'm just having a really hard time coming to terms with the christianity that I was raised with
So, I don't know. I don't know what I would consider myself
But I I think i'm I think I lean more towards somewhere where I'll I'll still land
With some sort of faith in god because I think giving that up is really hard for me
But I just I wish christianity was different. I just I wish I wish people were more like jesus, I guess
Uh, because like I I really do think that like the work that jesus did on earth was so impactful
And I would love to get to hang out with jesus
But the way that i'm seeing christians treat people is so far from who I thought jesus was
That that's where i'm having a hard time because i'm seeing like I because I was telling you guys before that like
Since coming out with these different beliefs like I I protested against roby wade because
I vehemently believe that the church should just stay out of politics and that's why I protest and I
Got so bullied by people that call themselves christians and I will call it bullying because the things that they said were mean
Um, and they probably just see me as being a snowflake is probably what they would call me
But I don't understand how you can call yourself a christian how you can claim to follow jesus and just treat people so poorly
Because like if you look at the way that jesus treated people it was always putting that person first like that person came first
He didn't ask them what their beliefs were he didn't ask them like all these in-depth questions about what you believe on this this this and this
It was just like do you love me? Will you follow me? Okay, cool and like do good
And I just I feel like modern christianity is so cruel and I don't know how it got to like
So cruel and I don't know how it got to okay
I do know how it got to this point because I feel like looking back on it christianity has always been cruel
And I don't know how that stemmed from who jesus is but that i'm sure
Mr d would come in and say well god is just and god has punishment
And tell me all these things but like I just
You can't sit there and tell me that jesus would walk into a room with someone from the lgbtq community and not affirm them
You can't tell me that jesus wouldn't see children being slaughtered in schools and say
We need to do something and we need to do something now
You can't tell me that jesus wouldn't see all of these issues and take action
Against all of the horrible things that are happening in our world and all I feel like christians care about is themselves and protecting their
Individual selves and they don't give a rat's ass about anyone around them anymore
You know, I think if they want to be persecuted we should just do that
That's gonna be as bad as my bullying work shit that I had to deal with after the first episode
like they
No, no, but ryan they were persecuted when we wouldn't let them worship in churches because there was a pandemic going
They were persecuted. You're right. You're right. I you know
Poor poor people couldn't go and sing their hearts out
And a building with a bunch of people with the same beliefs
Sorry, I have so many feelings about modern christianity and you guys gave me a platform. Yeah blame constantin
He's the one that put christianity in the public eye
Uh, it's all his fault
Okay, just so you know before constantin christians were being
Murdered and everything and that's when christianity was at its peak. It was doing its best
Yeah, once people got comfortable. I went downhill once christianity got power
It was so funny too because I was when I was at the protest for roby wade. I was like
90 sure if jesus was here on earth
he'd be out here protesting with us or at least like having conversations with us because like
Jesus was all about empathy and like understanding people
So whether or not he would agree with it or not, he would be there having conversations
conversations trying to understand people and like be there for them and
Instead I was getting comments on my instagram post telling me that college really messed me up
Here's my take on what christian or what jesus would be like
Like in modern times he would go to one of those protests, right?
He'd go up to the megaphone that the person's holding up there and have everyone sit down cross-legged like everyone's standing with their signs
He'd just be like everyone sit down and then he'd just be telling a bunch of these riddles that make no fucking sense
Like those people in the past they were like why like with the education level that they had and whatnot
Like jesus would just be up there and just be speaking speaking gibberish. We have no idea what he was saying
Like what are you talking about?
I don't know just applaud
He sounds good doing it though
You got you got two options you can clap and applaud or you can run them out of town
I would just be there for the food, you know
There's no food at protests except well jesus can
Jesus can feed them all okay
He can multiply my granola bar
I went to a protest and there was a
uh
I don't remember what they were called like food not bombs or something
And they had free food best thing ever
We were probably gonna get murdered by the kkk. But at least there were vegan sandwiches. Very good town on the sun
Hey, i'm allergic to dairy. So I appreciate a vegan option being there. It was all vegan. That's the best part
No one else had another option
They were chickpea salad and they were amazing
But i'm sure they were you can keep telling yourself that
Hi brian
Hey, i'm lactose intolerant. I just get the lactate stuff and eat that before every meal
Oh, I have a straight up dairy allergy. My throat swells up. That's awesome
Yeah, it recently developed in the last year pretty cool
Probably had to change everything about what you eat all at once
It's freaking horrible and I hate my life and I still eat cheese
Yeah, you can't give up cheese after like eating cheese for 20 some years in a row. It's just
I don't think there's any going back
I'd rather die
We went to get ice cream last night. We went to a place that they have a vegan option
Yeah, and but they have like 30 other just normal ice cream options and I told nick
I was like why couldn't the universe take this away from me when I was like three?
Why'd they have to take it away when i'm 26 and I know what the other side is like
Yeah, like why is the only non-dairy option coconut? Come on
Give me something more than just coconut ice cream. I'm sick of it
Uh, there are so many more options than just coconut everywhere I go
The main option is coconut and then there's like maybe one other non-dairy option
I support I stan with soy soy is the best and I will die on that hill
No for ice cream. The best is oat
Oat oat milk ice cream is so good
Oh oat milk just has a weird
To it makes it's the creamiest non-dairy ice cream i've ever had
That's not true. You need to come have this soy. I know I i've tried soy ice cream. It's not real. It's fake. Okay
Haven't had this ice cream. We're talking about we're talking about just cream. I don't like their soy ice cream
Can you say just don't like their soy ice cream? No. Yes, it's just cream. That's a poor choice
They know they have to know don't tell me what to do ice cream place
They're black cherry soy ice cream. I
Dream about it because it's the only ice cream i've had that's an actual ice cream texture
All right, i'll get the black black cherry. I'll try you haven't got have you tried oatly like at the grocery stores like the little pints?
Yeah, and I don't like it. I don't like oatly you're crazy
Your taste buds need some work
Well, my taste buds are screwed up because of covid. So yeah, well my lungs are screwed up because of covid
So go team so
Yay, can't go a day without wheezing in the morning
So becca, thanks for joining us and breaking up the uh, the straight white male hierarchy we had going on give it a little
variable and variance here
Variance here. Uh, so the episode i'm barely different. I'm a cis white
Female is she our token female for the show? Like what is this?
We can stop being accused of appropriating everything and speaking out of our lane
I don't want to go any further than that. I can keep going. Um
so
The episode we're talking about today is season three episode five when friends are deconverting. Um
Um, the episode starts eight minutes into a very brisk
27-minute episode. I feel like this topic should have had a little bit longer than 27 minutes. Well 19 minutes
Really, but nope, apparently the world can be solved from deconversion in 19 minutes. So
I'm just going to give a little background here. Uh, it opens up with a question from a former student
Uh who was saying that they were talking to their best friend who used to believe in the story of christianity and jesus
But now this person just believes that there is a god that created the world
I asked what made you change your mind the person responded that there are so many religions and so many world views
How do I know the one of christianity is true?
um, so really to pull out of that is the person
Found a lot of inconsistencies in christianity and that's what made them change their mind from being exclusive
Exclusionary to more open to other religions
Uh, so the student the former student
Rear was responding to their best friend
with concepts from utt and
Their friend responded but anyone can use the religion to make the other one sound wrong and that put the former student at a standstill
Which I think is kind of funny. Um, so I just wanted to talk a little bit about
Uh the utt class in general. I know we mentioned it before but uh becca
Actually, you did the final exam where you had to sit down and try to guess someone's world view and try to convert them
If you want to talk about that a little bit
Yeah, I I forgot that mr d stopped teaching bible class for a little bit after my grade
Um, so I totally blanked on the fact that we were one of the last ones to have it obviously until he started teaching again
But yeah, so you spent the entire year learning
I think it was like eight world views or something like that and then your final exam
He was a stranger at a bus stop mind you you did this in front of your entire class
So you had to do this awkward interaction in front of your classmates, which made it just that much worse
Um, but you basically had to walk up to him pretend like you were just a stranger and you had to strike up a conversation
With him, um and ask questions and try to figure out what his world view was
And then also based on what he was saying try to defend against the things he was telling you
Um, and you it was kind of fun. It was like jeopardy. You got a lifeline, uh
Because you had like one you could ask the class for help
Like you could pause the interview or the interaction or whatever and ask the class for help and they could tell you like how?
to direct the conversation or like what to ask if you were stuck and so
Um when I did mine he ended up being a cosmic humanist
Which I don't even fully remember exactly what that is
I know like i'm pretty sure like buddhism and hinduism fall under that umbrella of some sort
Yes, I was gonna say chris. You probably know better than I do. You're the brains of this operation
Ryan did more school than me. But yeah, but you remember all your facts. So
So you you have all of that tucked away deeply tucked away
but yeah, so
like my conversation with him, I remember it like
It really got directed like towards the environment of some sort like we talked about oil spills and the turtles
at some point
um, and my
My exam was actually relatively easy compared to a lot of the other people that had to do theirs because cosmic humanism
What I remember it being pretty straightforward and just the tips and stuff that he gave us
It was like decently easy to defend against which is such a true
It's such a strange thing to have an exam be an argument with someone at a bus stop
Because I don't think i've ever in my life even had a conversation at a bus
It was just not realistic
Well, you failed the lesson then because you're supposed to have these conversations all the time in college and convert people
It's so funny because I do remember like my freshman year having some of these conversations and then I was like I don't care about this
So I just stopped having the conversation. I just like arguing
Did I want to be a lawyer at one point? Yes
But do I want to actually care about what i'm arguing about also?
Yes, and I just like didn't care about telling people that they were wrong. Like I my heart was just not in not in it
But um, but yeah, I remember I did use my lifeline
I had to pause and ask a question because I got stuck in my exam
But I ended up figuring it out and what was so wild about the exam too is if you guess wrong you fail and I remember
One of Ryan and I's mutual friends Austin
I don't actually remember if he ended up failing or not
but everyone in the class agreed with him and thought that the worldview that he chose was the correct one and
Mr. D told him no that wasn't it. That wasn't the one I was doing and everyone said yes it was
And he I don't know if he ended up failing him or not. Ryan. Do you remember?
Uh, he didn't get failed. I think he got docked some points, but
Okay, he did not fail the final
Yeah, I just I remember him like threatening us like if you get it wrong, you'll fail and I was like what can you do that?
You're giving us a 50-50 chance
Basically, and if we get it wrong, then we fail we just fail the final
but yeah, it was I like I just remember that like the trauma from that exam alone that it put people through because
Some people just aren't meant to be put in front of people on a stage like that
No less and people froze up a ton didn't know what to ask didn't know how to handle the conversation
And I just I it's just mind-boggling to me that it wasn't I guess in a way
It was a test of our knowledge, but it was like how well can you prove these people wrong?
And that's not what I want my face to be in any way
I don't want my faith to be about what I can prove people wrong about I want my faith to be my faith and
That's it. Like my faith has nothing to do with other people
It has nothing to do with conversations that I have trying to prove people wrong
Like my faith is my faith and if people ask me questions, I'll answer it, but it's personal
It's not my job to tell someone. Hey, I think you're wrong. And this is why here's all the reasons
Like I that holy thing just haunts me
Thank god we didn't have to do it. Yeah, it was
Everyone was so stressed out
It was yeah, I remember you guys being stressed. I don't even know you that well
Yeah, it was bad. I think my best friend was I guess I can say her first name
But Peyton was like freaking out and I just remember her and I like constantly going over the different world views and
Like just going over them one after the other trying to remember like different things and we would watch the other
classmates that had to do it because he got like put in a random order I think for
Who like went first and we would sit in the back of the classroom and like if people were struggling
We would sit there and try to figure out like how we would handle it and how we would help them
But I don't know. I just that was not it
That exam was not it
It's bad. It's
I think he still does it. Oh, I just also want to say that cosmic humanism isn't like a real term that
Like other religions use no, it's not. It's uh, it's it's one that was just like fat. I don't know
I keep saying this every episode but it's like
evangelicals just create terms for things that were terms already exist to like
feel smart or something but
it's more
That's like where i've never heard any of these world view like terms
Like used outside of Lakewood. Yeah
Except for Islam because Islam had its own umbrella too for some reason along with those other world views
That's right. But I also remember mr. D getting really triggered when I brought up the point that
uh, Islam and Christianity are so
Very similar. They are just getting very very triggered being well
No, i'm like then going into all this explanation. I'm like, no, but they're like really similar like really really similar. Yeah, almost like they
Faded together around the same area in the same time in the same culture. It's weird. Yeah, same origin stories
weird
Yeah, don't know what that's about. But
I'm sure we'll never figure it out. But yeah, cosmic humanism is just like the new age movement like kind of thing
Is a more apt term for it. I don't know why they make these terms up. It's super annoying like because i'll come across
Because i'll come across something and just be like there's a term for this in christianity
And then I have to like match the terms and then remember which one goes where it's super annoying
It's like your christianese. Yeah, it's yeah, there's a lot of things that it just feels like wait a second
There's terms for all this like psychology and stuff too
Like things they talk about yeah, like when they define truth they that was interesting
So slopher defines truth in this episode with that which best corresponds with reality
So does it match up with what is actual in our world? Oh, that was an interesting definition of truth
You know our definition for for truth is
You know our definition for for truth is that which best corresponds to reality, you know that
Does it match up to what is actual?
In our world and that is a weird definition. Yeah, so I was looking around trying to figure out where he got it
I don't I don't know. I couldn't find anything about it
I don't know if he made it up on the spot there or like it's a book that I wasn't able to find
But I spent like a solid half an hour trying to find this definition of truth
Yeah, that's weird. I feel like he the way that definition almost makes it sound like truth is relative
Because if you're saying how like how it corresponds with our reality it could correspond differently with each person's reality
I don't know. I'm not that smart though. So maybe I'm just confused
Yeah, it's a good point. It's a good point
I just know all the answers they would say to that would be no and then just like a weird twist of
What reality even means like we'd just be going down a definition rabbit hole with them
Yeah, it'd be like reality is grounded in truth and then you're like, wait a second
What?
No, we're in a circle. Oh, no, not again
But truth is the but what
And then he goes on and he was saying that you can immediately weed out world views with uh,
The students oh the students pronouns are she her they use so and the student's best friend and then he quotes no-brainer
I know that's not true for some of the possible world views
And then goes on this weird rant about atheism isn't true because we have morals and I know i've heard that one before
And it's just weird that it's still around but basically they believe that morality came
From a creator that's good and only good so we we have a we have a goalpost through god because he's
Perfect and he's never done any evil and so we know what good is through that
It at least weed out some
World views and some religions that right away. It's like no-brainer. Okay. Well, I know that's not that's not true
Whether it's based on what we know through science and observation or based on what we know through human life everyday human life experience
for example with atheism that
Morality, you know has has arisen from uh evolution and then
Even the problem of evil and suffering
Is bad luck, you know even the person who who is an atheist who would claim that doesn't really live that though
They're not really going to live as if evil and suffering is just bad luck
I mean, it's something they really care about especially when it hits close to home
What do you think about uh, where do you think morals came from ryan?
Morals society social evolution. How can there be people with different morals?
Like if we're gonna say that there's a base standard of morals that everyone has
Then everyone would follow those not everyone
There's not one moral that everyone follows that thinks it's good or bad like give me a sure give me a standard
Yeah, name one and I bet there's a group out there that would think it's
Either like the opposite of what some other group of people think
Oh postmodernism my favorite. That one is my favorite. Never mind. I love postmodernism
I just remember him telling us that postmodernists were the worst. Oh, yeah, they still say that in pod their podcast episodes, too
It's great. Yeah
We have a couple
We have some inside jokes where in our description and stuff we say postmodernism not because it's like a real thing
But because we know that they talk shit about it all the time
still
I think postmodern is like the realest out of all of them though
I think that's a pretty real term. It makes a lot of sense and it's really just
hermeneutics
I think human humanism is a thing too, but they like they call it secular humanism or cosmic
Or oh, yeah, or like just humanism. That was a thing. It is the whole I'm this is where I'm very much like still deconstructing so
I wouldn't know what to tell you to that question. Like I haven't gotten there yet
All you do is just wholeheartedly just go with a belief at the time
And then you just change that belief like a few days later, and then you just wholeheartedly
argue a different perspective
Just keep arguing random perspectives and it's a great time until one sticks. Yeah
Until one actually makes sense and like you don't find a hole which really never I don't think that's happened yet
There's been a hole
What's it called where you just believe in being a decent human being? Humanism. Okay, perfect
Yeah, but see that's problematic in itself. What does it mean to be decent?
People have different ideas on what decent is and what being a decent human being is. Yeah, that's why that's why you need god for morals
No, you don't
You want god for morals. It would be so much easier if there was some
Baseline or standard like life would be so much easier that way
I don't know. They seem to have a baseline and it makes it life pretty freaking difficult for everyone else
But not for them. It's easy for them. They they enjoy it. They love having set beliefs that they don't falter on
well
publicly falter on
Right, but like even if they do they're not gonna admit it. Yeah, they have a built-in
trapdoor for that and it's the
Concept of redemption right like I sin but i'm turning it around and getting better. It's not called redemption. It's called uh
I feel like it is redemption or repentance repentance. Thank you. Thank you
Yeah, that's their built-in trapdoor is repentance. That's like one of the cool things about that
Instagram group that I follow new evangelicals is he harps a lot on like
we are not perfect because he a lot of his like content is about just
basically being a different type of christian and
He talks about how like not everything he says necessarily gonna be true
He can be wrong about things and that's okay. And even he posted
Something that he ended up learning more information about and he
Reposted it and explained I was incorrect in this. This is what happened. And like
Explained how he was wrong about something and I was like that is so refreshing like
Thank you for being able to admit you're wrong about something and owning up to it because I have never even seen a pastor do that
Yeah
Yeah, I don't think I have either i'm trying to think about that now
I'm even just thinking about like that Warsaw. Did you see the stuff about that pastor in Warsaw? Yeah, that was fucked up
Yeah, super fucked up Ryan. Did you see that stuff? Nope
so
Mr. Ignorant over there. Yeah
there was a pastor in Warsaw who
He was admitting to adultery in front of his congregation
but really what he actually did was rape because the girl was a minor and it was like rape and grooming
and
He was trying to paint it as adultery and the this is like years later
And the girl stood up with her husband, I think and was like no I was a child like you raped me
and
He was just like
Deferring all the blame and all this stuff and like people in the congregation were yelling at him and calling him out like it was
a mess
Yeah, and then the majority of the congregation afterwards got up in a pretty bad mood
Majority of the congregation afterwards got up and prayed for him in a circle
while the victim was just like crying alone with her
Assumingly partner not sure but yeah
Yeah, so tell me what good does knowing that stuff do you guys?
I knew the guy I've met that pastor before. Yeah. What good does it do you? Yeah
I mean
We're working on it. I am it's one step at a time one episode at a time
It's examples of how not to be
That is not a decent human
Based on what?
Screwed up someone else's life. So screwing up someone else's life is what is
You know, that's it's weird that's interesting because they would have to make an argument that
Like that's what cassilford would have to make an argument
that child marriage and
Like underage stuff like that is obviously not moral
But in the bible it was normal and like throughout the entire old testament. So like where does that morality come from?
Because that's my thing is like clearly the morality of things has changed over time
Because we're not okay with teens getting married anymore
but that was a thing that just happened all the time in the bible and
So how can things like that change but other things can't how can we take and?
You those aspects of the bible
But other things aren't allowed to change
It depends what issues are wrapped up in their political power or not. But yeah
Well, and it's like only because it's something that now looks bad. Whereas like
I don't understand why it's so bad to ask
the church to like
The church to like affirm people moving in together and like affirm
LGBTQ and affirm women and affirm like it's not a bad look. So why are you fighting so hard against it?
I mean, they probably just can't admit mistakes. Honestly, like yeah
I mean you're saying earlier you've never seen a pastor or someone in power really admit a mistake before
and like
Yeah, why why would they go back and admit a mistake when they can just corrupt entire branches of government and go back to?
1950s and before
Good luck guys. Cheers
It's all downhill from here
Anyway, this is my escape from that
so
I thought it was interesting at about 15 minutes in
D says that the person is correct in saying that anyone can use their religion to make the other sound wrong
So he's right that anyone can use their own religion
to show that
Another one is wrong. But what we're saying and I think what her question actually
Said was that there are inconsistencies in the worldview story
So she was on the the right track
She just needs to press that issue with him like that's it's not what I said
What I said was within the worldview itself there are inconsistencies
And it was a very interesting point to concede
But then he goes really off the rails and he starts talking about
Hinduism or other related religions that are new age and
Cosmic humanist related. Yeah. Well sure if we use their terms cosmic humans
Cosmic humanist and that basically said he starts talking about how they see the physical world as an illusion
So pain and suffering and evil is an illusion
And he's like, how can you look someone in the eyes that has been raped and say that the world is just an illusion
And all the pain and suffering they feel is an illusion
You know with with hinduism, you know or or any religion that says
Okay, the physical world as as brett pointed out the physical world is is an illusion
Okay, so then within if we think about that that means that
you know suffering and pain and
Evil is also an illusion. Does that make sense with what you see in the world?
You know, can you look at someone who said who's been raped and say sorry. It doesn't exist
It's just an illusion. All right, your pain is just illusory
Because this physical world doesn't exist
Which is like, okay really just raise the stakes there
But then also christians do that all the time when like someone dies from cancer and they just say it's like
And it was god's plan that someone died like you say the same thing like you don't use the word illusion for the the uh, the entire world
Which isn't even how teamism or cosmic humanists see things but whatever like he's completely wrong
But well, that's when he's when he said it
I was like, I feel like you're assuming a lot about how a person is gonna handle a situation like that
It's gonna handle a situation like that. Like I feel like you're just taking the very like far end of how they could approach it
And assuming that that's how they're gonna approach it because like christians just approach things so aggressively
Like someone that actually believes that is not gonna they're not gonna discredit someone being raped and tell them it's an illusion
Like if they are an actual human being that is not in any way shape or form how they're gonna actually address
That type of situation like have you I want to know have you actually met someone that that's how they handle it
Like that's how they that's how they treat it. Like if they met someone that had been raped
They would just completely disregard it in order to force what they believe down that person's throat because I have and they're all christians
so yeah, I was gonna say just this past week or yesterday the uh,
There's been christians talking about the 10 year old rape victim that got an abortion here from ohio
Because it's banned in ohio now, but not here
So she got one in indy and she's 10 years old and there's still christians saying things like it was god's plan
Do you have a child and like you murdered it kind of thing and it was like I don't hear that from any other sec
Sect except you like and it's not every christian obviously but like the people in power like that was
A state senator and then i've seen stuff from our attorney general even who's a piece of work
But like it's like people who have power say these things and like it's awful
It's very frustrating kind of remember who it is because there was another political figure too that was talking about how
Instead of like acknowledging the horrible and horrific thing that happened to this child and the fact that she had to go
Across a state border in order to deal with it. She was like posting pictures of the man who raped her
He was posting she was posting pictures of his like booking photo and saying well he was arrested
Like look at look at this justice that was done. He was arrested like okay cool
But that doesn't negate the fact that this child was raped and now pregnant with that man's child
So I get like 10
Yes a literal child and these are the exact kind of scenarios that we were afraid of
And now you're trying to completely discredit this child's experience by saying well, at least he was arrested like yeah
Okay, cool. That's our justice system. He was arrested awesome
But you still have a child that is now pregnant with her rapist child and she herself is a child
So how does him getting arrested have anything to do with the fact that now she's having to process that trauma?
Yeah, I mean
Yeah, exactly
Like the situation has happened and it was christians telling that their pain suffering and evil is an illusion
Like they don't use that word, but it's the same concepts and it's really frustrating
It was really frustrating to hear him say that that's for sure
Because it wasn't it wasn't even a topic that was being talked about and then it's just like let's just take the highest stake possible like a rape case
And just like imagine that but like you hear the same thing when anyone gets like cancer or anything like christians always have to stay
So positive about it and like pretend to be positive like you can say that having cancer fucking sucks
And you can be depressed about it like that's the normal reaction
Like having people tell you all the time that it was in god's plan to do this and like it was your time to get called back
It's like you're basically saying the physical world is an illusion because the rest is in your heaven
Like it's the same concept. I hate when they're like just pray about it like
Okay. Well, nothing's happened and i'm still dealing with it. So
I need further steps
Yeah, and like people get so caught up into that just praying about it and doing like natural remedies kind of thing that they die
like they don't do the things that work because they're so wrapped up in the anti-science like
Vaccines are not effective and like they get caught up in this all this stuff that the churches
Let get peddled around for so long that you try to do natural cancer remedies
Then you like you die because you can't trust scientists or anything like that and it's super frustrating
even just like the whole mental health crisis like I
Got told to just pray about it so many times while I was having panic attacks suicidal thoughts
severe severe depression and
You want me to just pray about it?
I need serious help like I I need actual
Help, I don't need to just keep praying about it
I need someone to actually help me who is licensed and a professional to walk me through this. I would not be
Where I am today if I didn't get actual counseling done to work through those issues
So not pastoral counseling
It is technically the wife of a pastor, but she is actually a licensed mental health counselor
That's good. I wrote a whole paper on why they shouldn't be pastoral counseling
Yeah, it's good stuff. You know, it sounds like all these Christians could just benefit really from just following the science
like just
Just looking into the science
They have their own science
We'll get to that in a second
Have a couple more we have a couple more bullet points before that
I
another interesting thing is
That d brings up that one of the options for the former student is to use
the worldview of I
I again need to clarify that worldview isn't actually a real thing that real official people use
It's just a Christian thing and i'm using their language
So he uses the term worldview and saying to use it against them instead of using Christianity against them
That that religion it is uh, you know is wrong
It's using its own worldview to argue that those are that that is wrong
And so that's one of the tests we can put to worldviews to determine
Well, is does this make sense? Does this make logical sense? Is it livable?
Right. Is there evidence outside the worldview we can touch on that would show it to be true
So there's a few tests we can put to these religions to be able to determine the truth rather than just
You know, I say this is true. You say that is true. Yeah, that's gonna go nowhere
Which is like a really stupid point to make but like I remember it being a big thing in the utt class
Is like if christians know enough about another worldview that they feel like they can prove it false
But then they never take that concept and apply it to christianity as their worldview
And like if I know enough about christianity then I can also prove it false
Just like I can do with any other worldview of like they always come in it with a baseline of like christianity is true
And then here's why it's true and it's never like all of the evidence makes it true
It's like here's a bunch of evidence after the fact that makes it true
And then here's where all these other worldviews are also false
And so ours is the best one, but then they like they never evaluate anything on fair ground
And that's why I lost my faith because turns out once you start thinking about christianity. It starts to break apart
Well, and that's like I that utt exam thinking about that
Is interesting because you know you have this conversation with a stranger, but he never really argues back about christianity
Like it was just me pointing out the flaws in his belief system and then him trying to defend that obviously
But then you're supposed to like slide christianity in there and like basically witness and evangelize to them
But it's never them then coming at christianity and trying to defend christianity
But it's never them then coming at christianity and trying to point out the flaws in that
It was all very one-sided of just trying to prove them wrong and then slip christianity in there. Yeah, super weird
Super not normal
Yeah, it's it's just so funny because it's like once you apply that because like utt was the class where I started taking it
And that's where like I couldn't hide like I couldn't bury my uh thoughts about christianity and like it was becoming more and more
Fractured was about when utt happened and then it was like it was only worse
So it was just kind of like duct taping everything together and pretending everything was fine as it was just like all like
Crumbling and through the duct tape and like just falling onto the floor
It's like everything's fine kind of thing and it wasn't but like the point of lakewood is that you do 12 whole years of
Of christianity so you come in with the baseline for utt and then it's not supposed to fall apart because I was looking at the
The curriculum and they now have curriculum
That's focused like different sections of it
They spread it out across the entire 12 years of like a private school education
And i'm very curious. I want to buy some and go through all uh, all of the years of it
But you're supposed to have a foundation just built on christianity and then not think about anything else for 11 years
And then your senior year you're supposed to like here's where everything's false
And then it's already too late for you to deconstruct at that point
but
It's interesting. It's interesting
It's interesting when
You learn critical thinking skills of how dangerous of a weapon that is if you're being trying you're trying to be kept in line
kind of thing too
Yeah, because I feel like I remember so many times that like they told us to question things and like
I remember mr d specifically telling us to ask questions, but then it was met with like this
Well, don't ask like too many questions
Like and ask the right questions like we only were allowed to ask very specific questions
Because anything outside the scope that was leaning towards like moving away from faith was dangerous
But it's like you want us to ask questions, but you don't want us to ask these questions
But you want to teach us critical thinking but we're only
like I feel like they tried to put these very like restrictive rules on critical thinking for us and
It didn't work out for a lot of us because I think a lot of us have gone past
Those boundaries. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's interesting
So I don't I don't want to talk about this but so they bring up the worldview test
Three tests to apply to any any worldview. Is it logically consistent?
Is it empirically adequate and is it existentially relevant? So can you follow a flow of logic logic in which it's not?
Contradictory within itself or within the tenets of that faith
Is it empirically adequate? Does it does it line up with what is observable?
In creation and then essentially relevant. Does it actually connect with our human existence and experience?
But it's funny
I just wanted to point out that I'm pretty sure and as far as I could tell by googling
That that was created by Ravi Zacharias who was a real piece of shit and a very big hypocrite
And it was just kind of funny to me. But like when you point those tools also against Christianity
It's kind of the same point I was making earlier
It's like the same flaws appear kind of thing and so like I don't know
It's just it always is ironic to me when they hand these tools out to students and
They just point it at every other worldview and are like like they're telling they're telling this former student to use these three tools
As a way to break apart your best friend's worldview, but don't do it on yourself in your own worldview because christianity is true
I also just want to know what like what other religions out there are being this aggressive
About what other people think?
Who cares this much about this kind of stuff? Like I don't that's what I don't understand
I cannot fathom why we care so much like I I do but I also don't I don't
I don't know. Well, it's interesting to me
Um that christianity is the most popular but they're bleeding
Like young people like I remember like there's always the statistic about like
The seniors that go to college their first year like 70 percent of them lose their faith kind of thing
And it's like interesting
It's like something's wrong and you should think about it and like maybe change some stuff and then instead they're just like no
Get our grip tighter
Yeah, they dig their heels in deeper. Yeah
Yeah, not great on the self-reflect self-reflection and repentance thing as a movement
It is interesting when I worked at the church
they did this whole big project on it's called growing young and
They were like trying to understand ways that they could like fix how much they were bleeding young people and like losing young people
And all this stuff and i'm trying to remember like what the issues that people had were
But I don't think anything actually came out of it
I don't I like I think the only thing that really changed was they focused like a little bit more on the student ministry
And the kids ministry like they would highlight them more
But and so like try to make them involved in like the main church service and that sort of thing
but nothing like
Foundationally changed
Right, they're just changing their manipulation tactic
Essentially, yes get it started earlier
Yeah, that was I just like I remember sitting in on those meetings and
Just like having all these thoughts about like why don't we feature women more? Why don't we get more female staff members?
Why don't we get people that are not white on staff?
Why don't we do all these other things instead of just like focusing on here's a child
the service
Yeah, something meaningful instead of the easy route of just like
Pretending this is going to help well and it's like, you know
You can have these services where you focus on kids
But like make these other fundamental changes that are clearly issues within this church before
Focusing on the children and the youth because yes the children and the youth want to see more of like their own
representation in ways, but they want to see other minority groups and like just other types of people
Represented within the church, I think and even that would be impactful
But instead it was like let's just throw the kids on stage
Chris should we
Do an episode of county lines family podcast sometime? Is that the podcast that jb and
Matt did uh, there's one with dane in it. What's it called?
Hang on. Let me look it up because there's one that they because they used my brother's song for the intro
That's awesome. Uh, the jesus-centered family podcast is what it is called
I've never listened to it. I have it's all about their sticky fae thing. It's about like families and like keeping your kids
From leaving. Oh, yeah, that's the one the intro is my brother's song
Oh god, I was there when they came up with that tag line equipping every generation to intentionally live a jesus-centered life
We spent an entire day's meeting coming up with that line
Uh a whole eight hours just change equipping to indoctrinating is perfect
Indoctrinating every generation to intentionally live a jesus-centered life that sounds much more correct
Listen, I can't talk too poorly about yes, you can county line student ministries because I yes you can
I actually appreciate those guys. They were not my problems with county line
Because they were not my problems with county line. Um
The whole the whole thing there's good people in there, but they are willingly participating in it
Yeah, like yeah, you understand where they're coming from, but it is willful ignorance
This is the difference though. I can like them as human beings and have issues with their theology
and their beliefs
That sounds a lot. I hate this and that sounds a lot like yeah, I love this
Yeah, that's sounding a lot like that and that is
scientifically proven and not be possible
Hey, I can think someone is a nice person and think they've got some shitty beliefs
Okay beliefs is different actions like you can't really like a person that does terrible actions
Yeah, that's fair. It's hard too
I think you know who else is predictable slow fur
So he comes out and he starts talking about a correct answer for everything and then decides to bring science into it
which was hilarious because obviously, uh, the unseen can't be measured like so he starts talking about how the
model of the universe was that the earth was in the middle and then everyone thought that
Uh people were crazy for thinking the sun was in the middle. So they executed gal leo
But turns out gal leo was right and so they get this little so slow first
I was talking about a little persecution thing going on where it's like everyone thinks we're wrong about religion
But we're gonna be right and science proves it except when science is wrong it changes and your religion
Can't seem to change and is fighting tooth and nail to revert an entire country backwards in time with your outdated morals
and not understanding how health care works or
Being able to somehow
Conjure out any political ideology you want from a by the bible that doesn't talk about anything
And so I think it's kind of stupid to try and argue. There's a correct answer in religion
Especially through science when it can't be measured or observed
It's kind of a dumb analogy on his part and I just wanted to feel bad about it just a little bit
And then yeah, did you want to say something nope, okay
I'm sorry. That's fine. What a great co-host
I i'm ryan. I have zero thoughts. I have a lot of thoughts. Just not on that. Nope
I mean that was pretty clear cut and dry. I just wanted to make fun of slow for a little bit but
Also, it sets up for his ending that we'll talk about and then
D tells the person to take a comparative religion study, which is also funny because then
Like you just point the skeptic lens at christianity and then you're back at the same place where
Fighting about religions is stupid and why can't we all just coexist kind of thing?
Oh, yeah, they hate it on the whole coexist thing. I forgot
Yeah
Yeah, the whole coexist movement thing isn't to say that all religions lead to the same place
Maybe some people say that but I don't think that's really the meaning. I think it is more about religious freedom
like
Let people believe what they believe and coexist
Literally, it's in the word
Yeah
God
No
I don't know why they get they do this every episode where they like somehow find a way just to get like
Super tribalistic about something instead of like like maybe thinking about this in a different way and like being less
Like tribalistic about it, but it's like nah full in on the exclusionary
Religion, like we're just gonna really commit and I guess that's kind of their job. So
See, like I said, if we just persecute them more than they won't have time to focus on politics
I don't understand how they can like
Harp so because you were talking about religious freedom and like I don't understand how christians can harp so much on religious freedom
when literally what they're doing what they claim is religious freedom is
Taking away the freedoms of other religions exactly. Yeah, it makes no sense
It's not supposed to make sense
It's just supposed to be right. No, they say it's they say it makes sense. They seem to
Say like I heard the word logical so many times in that episode like just got to think logically
Analytically like they if if I'm supposed to think about it logically, it should be making sense logically
And it does not
Well, because like they built a world
They built a world like they built an education system
I guess where this all makes sense inside of it like you don't think about it
It just makes sense like growing up
I didn't think about any of this and then I started thinking about it and then it all fell apart like and it's
Yeah, and 70 percent if that number is even real
I don't even know but like if 70 percent of young people go to college for one year and leave the faith like
I think you're doing something wrong where like one year of gen ed classes or like having a little bit of freedom can just like
Top of an entire like having a little bit of exposure to other types of people in the world
And realize and realizing that you actually can't treat people the way that you told me to have conversations with them at bus stop
Nobody talks at the bus stop like I don't know the fuck that's about but like
I've never talked to anyone a bus stop or a train stop like no i'm not doing that
also just that
It's just not a natural conversation
Yeah, and if I do talk to someone it's sure not gonna be about religion. That's for sure
Hey you waiting on the bus. Yeah, how you feel about god?
But that's what they like they set that up of like that's what you're supposed to do because like if you truly believe
In a literal hell where people will burn for eternity like you should be doing that. You should do nothing else
That's why I don't think that they could deep down tell me that they believe in eternal damnation
Because like you would be out there trying to tell everyone every second of your entire life
And like instead you're teaching bible to a bunch of students so that they can keep their faith
Instead of like going finding new converts like I just don't believe that they can deep down actually
believe in eternal damnation
They indoctrinate soldiers to go out and indoctrinate other people for them. Oh, so it's a pyramid scheme
Yes, it's all a pyramid scheme
The christian mary k let's get it right. It's multi-level marketing guys. Come on
I don't know. I forgot
But like no seriously like do they sit down and watch tv?
Because that's time they could be like converting people and saving them from eternal fire and like it's just I
Don't I don't believe there's a literal hell
I don't believe there's anything like that
But like I didn't I can't even say that I would have believed in that being a real thing past like having super
Hardcore end times anxiety about it
But like it's just I don't know like if people are gonna die and then burn and suffer forever
like and you're gonna and you believe that you're going to heaven to like be happy and as d said and
constant state of orgasm
That's like why would you not spend your
Sure day
Uh, I hate that I hate that a lot. Mm heaven sounds great. Yep. There's no marriage in heaven
But at least there's constant orgasm. Yeah, who needs marriage?
That's all marriage is for
Making soldiers for the lord, maybe but fill your quiver with arrows
I don't know why you would be wasting your time here
In their words wasting your time here by not evangelizing all of the time humans have limitations chris. Okay, gotta identify your weaknesses
No one can do that. No one can exist that way. Well, then what's the point then ryan? You're right. What is the point?
I don't know
Like if you feel like your purpose is to evangelize to save people from hell and you can't even do that all day every day
Then what even was the point like you should feel bad about yourself
I feel pretty great about myself
Yeah, but you don't believe any of that. So you're fine
Yeah, I don't know what I believe. So yeah, you should feel pretty great about that, too
Yeah, but you don't believe any of that. So you're fine
Yeah, I don't know what I believe. So yeah, you should feel pretty great about that, too. I'm just here
completely valid completely
See, I feel like most people at least for me
It wasn't like I found a set of beliefs. The core belief is that I can't ever have 100% certainty on any belief
That's my core ground foundation for my existence now because I can never be 100 sure about anything and I live based on that
I'm not spiritual at all
And I live in the observable universe. So I follow that and I don't care. You're not spiritual at all
No
Not at all. Well, what if you think of spirituality as the things in the universe that we can't sense?
Well, we better be able to sense it soon
What if we can never but we like know it's there?
Well, if we know it's there, how do we know it's there?
dark matter a gravitation
Like things being affected by by mass that's not there. No, like it's not spiritual though
You can know i'm saying think of different dimensions as being the spiritual realm
I feel like people could get things that they don't understand or can't see mixed up with
Spirits or something. So really they're just one in the same. Okay, that's fair
I can see that I see what I see what you're saying. I don't know if I agree with it
I'll think about it
But no, but you're right like that's kind of how religion came out of things is like things that people didn't understand
Right like the sun people worshiped the sun
Okay, who wouldn't worship the sun? Nothing's badass exactly
but now we can see way farther than the sun and see things bigger and even greater than the sun and like
Like the black hole that's like a hundred million times the size of the sun. Yeah, what's in there? We don't know
I mean we kind of do though, but that's all physical all based on assumptions and guesses
Yeah, but it's physical like I see what you're saying about spiritual being things
We don't understand what do you mean something's physical if it's just within the three dimensions that we have
Like if we can't touch it, it's not physical time is a fourth dimension
Right really exists. I'm just saying if there's something out there that we can't perceive but other such beings could touch
Like that would be physical too, but not physical to us physical is relative. Yeah, right. I see what you're saying
I see what you're saying
But what I'm saying is I don't focus on that because it's a waste of my life to worry about it
Oh, it's not worrying is curiosity
Curiosities fun not knowing is fun
If you find joy and not knowing things then you can just be happy the rest of your life because you're never gonna know anything
What do you think about the multiverse?
Could we be in a simulation real could be real who knows can't be certain about it
I'm pretty convinced in the simulation, but I like the idea of multiverses
simulation
makes sense I
Don't care either way. Nothing changes for me
I don't think a lot about the multiverse
But I like to think about what other planets there are and what kind of people live on those planets and whether those planets are
as fucked up as earth
probably
And then at the end of the episode
Sloper says follow the science. I don't know. Well
Just follow the science doesn't that fix everything these days just say
That's it
Like he's got a big point there and like is really owning the libs but like oh my god
What a stupid misunderstanding of science and like it so scares me so much every time I listen to these guys that like
They teach children how to like think and then they just do these little owns all the time
And it's super annoying is like like I don't think you understand how science works
First off and like what the whole slogan follow the science means, but it doesn't lead to your religion. That's for sure
I hate that so much that he said that it really pissed me off for the student who initially asked about their friend
Deconverting, I understand that that can be a very concerning thing based on
The world view that you may have I would suggest
Instead of just looking for ways to try to see or try to get your friend to see the way
That you see things I would suggest to try to see how they see things learn about their world view
You don't just be thinking about how you can discredit their world view, but actually learn from it
They may have ideas and concepts that you can benefit from they have a different way of seeing things
And that can help you understand the world and other people within that world, too
It's not just something to try to remove from that person, but you can learn from them and they can learn from you
so all in all don't just go trying to
Convert them back to christianity. They are another person going through life. You can't choose your beliefs
Those are not a thing and if anyone tells you you can choose what you believe
They are most likely wrong, you know
Just go and try to give up your world view for a day and come back to it
You're not going to be able to do it beliefs aren't your choices, but you can learn from other people's beliefs and gain more wisdom
And understanding by knowing more and more of other people's beliefs and perspectives. They are very beneficial and will help you in the rest of your life
That's all I gotta say
well said
If you are this former student or any former student or want to reach out at all, please email us at
hey at
Hallway transgressions.com. We'd love to hear from you and all that. Thank you listeners. Have a good night
And we love you. Bye. Bye. Love you You